AR-5, r-154 Anybody actually done this

[96Formula6spd]

Alright everybody. I am continuing on working on our 1972 coronet lemons car project. Car has a 318. Anyways I am looking into our transmission swap. Right now we have an A833 overdrive. Nothing wrong with that. Sourcing a bellhousing is becoming a little bit of a pain as well as factory pedals. Well at least for a good price. I don't want to spend $600 on pedals and linkages. Then another $300 in a bellhousing (seriously what is going on with mopar prices). So I was wondering if anybody had done the Dakota Bellhousing with a r-154 or ar-5. Seen talk of it but nobody actually goes anywhere with it. Is there a reason nobody has. Anybody have any good links to info. Not worried about doing custom work. Just trying to find answers on basic things like input shafts, clutches etc. Stuff like slave cylinders would be easy as well as getting a driveshaft made up. Even making a mount is not hard.

Yes this is on the b-body page as well. Since both cars use the LA engine I figure I would hit both forums for more traffic. Anybody in the A-body land used any of these transmissions?

 

[72bluNblu]

Yes it's been done with a R-154. You need an adaptor for the pilot bearing, you need to convert over to a Dakota hydraulic clutch, and you need a clutch disk to work with the Dakota clutch that's splined for the R154.

Some info here, this is a R154 behind a 273...
Slant Six Forum, :: View topic - 273 with a 5-speed in an RX-7

Here also
BritishV8 Forum: small block mopar, road of un-spoken

I think there's a thread here as well. Neither of the above links were for use in an A-body or even a mopar, both were mopar engine swaps into other stuff. But they cover everything for making the drivetrain work, just not the tunnel or crossmember stuff that might be needed.

***Edit***
Ok it wasn't here but over on Moparts. R154 into a '72 Dart behind a 340. Unfortunately it looks like a lot of the pictures aren't linked anymore.
340sb with 5 speed conversion? | Moparts Question and Answer | Moparts Forums

 

[75slant6]

I believe @Buschi340 has an R-154 behind a HEMI in his car. I myself am running an ax-15 from a Dakota behind the 5.9 magnum in my Duster but that's a little more straight forward since you can use all factory Ram/Dakota parts to hook everything up.

 

[96Formula6spd]

Yes it's been done with a R-154. You need an adaptor for the pilot bearing, you need to convert over to a Dakota hydraulic clutch, and you need a clutch disk to work with the Dakota clutch that's splined for the R154.

Some info here, this is a R154 behind a 273...
Slant Six Forum, :: View topic - 273 with a 5-speed in an RX-7

Here also
BritishV8 Forum: small block mopar, road of un-spoken

I think there's a thread here as well. Neither of the above links were for use in an A-body or even a mopar, both were mopar engine swaps into other stuff. But they cover everything for making the drivetrain work, just not the tunnel or crossmember stuff that might be needed.

***Edit***
Ok it wasn't here but over on Moparts. R154 into a '72 Dart behind a 340. Unfortunately it looks like a lot of the pictures aren't linked anymore.
340sb with 5 speed conversion? | Moparts Question and Answer | Moparts Forums

Yeah I was reading the last one last night. Even came up on the forum. Thanks a TON for the one about the Rx-7. That helped a lot. Now looking on is300 forums to see what people are doing when they want a manual as r-154 prices are $$$ and a cheap colorado trans can be had for $250 or less. Since these transmissions are very similar its a matter of trying to figure out what slave cylinder to use. Ar-5 is a internal salve and the r-154 is external. So its a matter of Dakota bellhousing, Dakota clutch, 143 tooth starter. Still learning stuff but I have a feeling I am going to ditch the a833 for a ar-5. Also if we do this I guess I will make a thread about it. That way people can do it.

I believe @Buschi340 has an R-154 behind a HEMI in his car. I myself am running an ax-15 from a Dakota behind the 5.9 magnum in my Duster but that's a little more straight forward since you can use all factory Ram/Dakota parts to hook everything up.

I will look it up. ax-15 is not a bad idea but would prefer something a little more sporty in the gearing. Ar-5 with our factory 2.74 is not bad. Its even better when you start running 245/40/15. That is our tire choice for the car. Just add a lsd and go.

*Edit*
Seems Buschi340 is the one from the moparts thread. Not to many people in Germany doing this kinda swap. So figure its the same guy.

 

[75slant6]

I will look it up. ax-15 is not a bad idea but would prefer something a little more sporty in the gearing. Ar-5 with our factory 2.74 is not bad. Its even better when you start running 245/40/15. That is our tire choice for the car. Just add a lsd and go.

First gear is nearly useless in the ax-15 with my 3.23 gears but this winter I'll be swapping in 2.76s and that'll change it a lot. The AX with 2.76s will actually have almost the exact take off as a low first gear 904 with 4.10s plus you get 2 extra gears over the 904 as well. Here's a comparison between the 2.

One big advantage that I believe the r154 would have over the ax-15 is smoother shifting. My ax does good for what I use the car for, a driver with some spirited takeoffs, but it's not the smoothest shifting. That said, another change I'll be making this winter is draining the oil out of the trans and going with Redline MT-90 or Redline MTL which, according to many jeep owners, does wonders for the shifting.

 

[96Formula6spd]

First gear is nearly useless in the ax-15 with my 3.23 gears but this winter I'll be swapping in 2.76s and that'll change it a lot. The AX with 2.76s will actually have almost the exact take off as a low first gear 904 with 4.10s plus you get 2 extra gears over the 904 as well. Here's a comparison between the 2.

One big advantage that I believe the r154 would have over the ax-15 is smoother shifting. My ax does good for what I use the car for, a driver with some spirited takeoffs, but it's not the smoothest shifting. That said, another change I'll be making this winter is draining the oil out of the trans and going with Redline MT-90 or Redline MTL which, according to many jeep owners, does wonders for the shifting.

Yeah that is nice. I like to use amsoil. Used redline and its good but man the amsoil stuff is like butter. That would be the advantage to the r154. Mainly I am really looking into the Colorado Mr5 or Ar5 what ever its called. Good gear ratios and cheap. R154 cost $1200 these days. A colorado transmission can be had at the pick and pull for $250 at a local salvage yard. Making it a good candidate. Thinking we may just do this. Would be nice if we could get a pick and pull day going. Find the Colorado transmission and have the other team pull a bellhousing. Mate the two up and checkout. They would not know the difference and we could walk out with what we need.

 

[75slant6]

Yea if you can get a Colorado trans pretty easily that'd probably be a good route to go

 

[72bluNblu]

AR-5 is the Aisin designation, GM called it the MA5 and you can get them out of Sky/Solstice roadster's too. Definitely a cheaper option than the R154, but it's only rated for 260 ft-lbs of torque. Some info as well as vehicles they came in Aisin AR transmission - Wikipedia

The R154 I think is by far the most desirable option for this route, best ratios, strongest, most aftermarket for replacing parts or beefing it up further. The AR-5 would be next. I wouldn't even mess with an AX15, it's a truck transmission and more work than it's worth in fabrication. An 833 OD can handle more power, and they aren't all that much more expensive (I've bought a couple for $200), and have better ratios even if the spread is larger. And they bolt straight in.

I was considering this swap myself, but those were the issues that caused me to make the decision to go straight to a T56 (after saving more money). The 340 in my Duster is good for ~400 hp if not a bit more. The r154 would work, but by the time I found one and built it the cost would be pretty significant. The AR-5 probably wouldn't live. And if I have to convert to a hydraulic clutch and fabricate a crossmember already the additional fab work for a T56 isn't that bad. More expensive for sure, bellhousing costs a ton, transmission costs a ton, plus all the extras. But with a t56 magnum being good for 700 ft lbs I don't ever have to worry about engine upgrades. Plus, better first gear ratio (2.66 vs 3.75 for the AR-5 and 3.25 for the R154) and an extra gear! You can go 3.91's or 4.10's no problem and still cruise easy. Heck I got the .63 6th, with the .5 version you could go 4.56's.

 

[96Formula6spd]

AR-5 is the Aisin designation, GM called it the MA5 and you can get them out of Sky/Solstice roadster's too. Definitely a cheaper option than the R154, but it's only rated for 260 ft-lbs of torque. Some info as well as vehicles they came in Aisin AR transmission - Wikipedia

The R154 I think is by far the most desirable option for this route, best ratios, strongest, most aftermarket for replacing parts or beefing it up further. The AR-5 would be next. I wouldn't even mess with an AX15, it's a truck transmission and more work than it's worth in fabrication. An 833 OD can handle more power, and they aren't all that much more expensive (I've bought a couple for $200), and have better ratios even if the spread is larger. And they bolt straight in.

I was considering this swap myself, but those were the issues that caused me to make the decision to go straight to a T56 (after saving more money). The 340 in my Duster is good for ~400 hp if not a bit more. The r154 would work, but by the time I found one and built it the cost would be pretty significant. The AR-5 probably wouldn't live. And if I have to convert to a hydraulic clutch and fabricate a crossmember already the additional fab work for a T56 isn't that bad. More expensive for sure, bellhousing costs a ton, transmission costs a ton, plus all the extras. But with a t56 magnum being good for 700 ft lbs I don't ever have to worry about engine upgrades. Plus, better first gear ratio (2.66 vs 3.75 for the AR-5 and 3.25 for the R154) and an extra gear! You can go 3.91's or 4.10's no problem and still cruise easy. Heck I got the .63 6th, with the .5 version you could go 4.56's.

Yeah this is the fun I have been looking into. Right now we actually have an A833 OD. However its missing a bellhousing. This is a 24 hours of lemons car after all. So the car needs to be worth $500. Granted the rust does a good job of that. Ill link some pictures below. The problem is that finding a decent price bellhousing has been a problem. We have $150 in our A833 and could probably sell it for $250. Now the Ar-5 is around and good news is people are pushing loads of power with them. Some are even using them behind LS engines. The 1jz and 2jz crowsd use them with 500-600hp. So our 150hp 318 should be a piece of cake. Heck the Colorado made 175hp. Not as much torque but still seems to be a pretty strong transmission.

This is going into a 72 Coronet and yeah that is a B-body but I posted stuff here to find information. Actually getting info here. Not hey just keep the 727. The problem is a $300 or more bellhousing with a fork, then $225 in some repoduction pedals. Add in all that linkage stuff for another $250. That is about $800 just to throw in an A883 OD. Not a bad way to do it but it leaves us with horrible gearing. I have been hunting for a non OD transmission to use but the cheapest one I saw was $750 without a bellhousing and was for an A-body. Plus 300 miles away. Still an option to go A833. Could convert to an external pull style slave. Seen this done using Willwood pedal,master and slave. Still would be better with a 3.55 rear end gear when using the OD. Right now we are on the 2.76 and even with the 245/40/15 tire its still not good. Might not even need to shift out of third.

So this is what brought up the idea of going to an ar5 again. I looked but then we got the A833 OD. Thought we could find a cheap bellhousing but that has not been the case. Figure I can get a Ar5 for $200 and a bellhousing from the pick and pull for about $50. Might even get it all from the pick and pull. Pull both and bolt what we need together and then checkout. So figure $250 into a transmission. Clutch and Flywheel will be simple using the dakota and a aftermarket clutch disc for the 26 spline input shaft. Starter would also be a dakota. Then just use a willwood pedal. Tho I kept a set of pedals from a Miata I parted out. Maybe mix and match some pedals. This could be figured out. But with the Ar-5 it has a internal slave cylinder that could be used as well. After that its a yoke and measure up the driveshaft. Make some homemade mounts and route the exhaust with the headers. Then make an adapter for the pilot bearing.

Now the idea is what car to get it from. The Colorados are sitting around $200-250 at loads of local junk yards. The Solstice and Sky are sitting around $500 with a few at $450. People in the is300 forums prefer the truck unit for shifter location. Also they are easier to find. So decesions to be made. Gearing is about the same. I actually have been playing in Forza on the Xbox with a very low powered car. Can enter the gear ratios and see how they all drive with our rear end and tire size. Not perfect but it helps. Just have to stay away from the 07+ update on the trucks. So 05-06 only. Still loads of those around tho.

Add to the r154. Great transmission but prices have gone threw the roof. Cheapest one for sale was $1200. So it seems that market is just like non overdrive a833 4spd. Making this idea go right out the window. T-56 have done this. I have a Lt1 car with a t-56. Could probably get 2k for that transmission is built. Why back to the Ar-5

Pictures of the car

 

[72bluNblu]

Whoops! I missed that this was a lemons car, I would have left off the T56 content.

Man, converting to a manual transmission for those kinds of prices is going to be rough. Any kind of 833, OD or otherwise will be pricey. Just the pedals and shifter will practically bust your budget, even if you fab all the linkage.

The AR-5 would be your best bet if you can find a Colorado in a junk yard. It'll hold up fine behind a stock 318, no worries there. And you could use pretty much all junkyard parts if you can find a Colorado and a Dakota in the yard. Just need to make the spacer for the pilot bearing and have the clutch disk re-splined.

I love my manual transmissions, but man for a lemons car a manual transmission conversion on a Mopar is a stretch.

 

[96Formula6spd]

Whoops! I missed that this was a lemons car, I would have left off the T56 content.

Man, converting to a manual transmission for those kinds of prices is going to be rough. Any kind of 833, OD or otherwise will be pricey. Just the pedals and shifter will practically bust your budget, even if you fab all the linkage.

The AR-5 would be your best bet if you can find a Colorado in a junk yard. It'll hold up fine behind a stock 318, no worries there. And you could use pretty much all junkyard parts if you can find a Colorado and a Dakota in the yard. Just need to make the spacer for the pilot bearing and have the clutch disk re-splined.

I love my manual transmissions, but man for a lemons car a manual transmission conversion on a Mopar is a stretch.

Not worried about the price. As a factory looking trans can be hidden in the $500 value. Its an old rusty mopar in the end. So judge Phil should let the car run Class C all day long unless it wins. Heck he might even like the ar-5 swap. That being said car will roll threw tech with a manaul transmission. And not say much about it. I think the theme is going to help as well. Most of it will be unseen. Good news is the car was last run in 2014 so as much as its a car that will be remembered due to the rust it will also be gone long enough that they might think the car was a manual all along. Its all the in value of the car. I actually got the car for $0. On top of that the 727 will be sold with a nice bill of sale. There are a few extras that were in the car that can be sold off. But that is not needed in here.

 

[75slant6]

Aren't you suppose to have receipts or proof of anything and everything you add to or sell off of the car to keep your total investment under $500?

 

[96Formula6spd]

Aren't you suppose to have receipts or proof of anything and everything you add to or sell off of the car to keep your total investment under $500?

Yep, So i have a bill or sale for the car at $0 as well as forum proof of getting the car for $0. I also have sold a few parts with recipets for them. Right now we are at -$250. Figure I can sell the 727 for like $100 and sell the horrible hurst shifter for another $150(its for the auto). With that we are -$500. So our budget is $1000. Again its what you hide. With judging all the old clapped out muscle cars are usually straight to C Class. So its not like its going to matter. They are going to see a very rusted out Dodge Coronet with a stock 318 and some sort of manual transmission. Are they going to look into it more. Probably not. Did you see the rust that helps our case of a car worth $500 or less. Heck are quarter panels are no longer connected to each other. The sail panel actually flaps in the wind.

 

[96Formula6spd]

Well taking the ar5 plunge. Sourced a bellhousing and going to pick up a transmission. Going to figure out at least the clutch side. Looks like a dakota clutch with a 70s gm clutch disc. Might be some trial and error but I am getting the bellhousing for free and the transmission is only $200. Clutch stuff is $140 and a flywheel new is $70. After that its making a pilot bearing adapter and fixing the driveshaft. Figure we might be in less than $700 on the whole swap. That is if we have to use a willwood pedal of if we can get away with some junkyard pedal box.

 

[magnumdust]

Yeah this is the fun I have been looking into. Right now we actually have an A833 OD. However its missing a bellhousing. This is a 24 hours of lemons car after all. So the car needs to be worth $500. Granted the rust does a good job of that. Ill link some pictures below. The problem is that finding a decent price bellhousing has been a problem. We have $150 in our A833 and could probably sell it for $250. Now the Ar-5 is around and good news is people are pushing loads of power with them. Some are even using them behind LS engines. The 1jz and 2jz crowsd use them with 500-600hp. So our 150hp 318 should be a piece of cake. Heck the Colorado made 175hp. Not as much torque but still seems to be a pretty strong transmission.

Just an FYI:

The MA5 was also used in the 5cyl colorados from 04-06. Which had 220hp. I've beat the hell out of mine and its held up in a heavy truck with hundreds of passes down the drag strip. They also used an upgraded version of the transmission in the 3.7 H3 Hummers.(240hp & much heavier than a truck). It'd probably hold up to a lot of abuse in your lemons car.

I had kicked around this idea for a swap awhile back, but the consensus was that the shifter would be right in the way of the cross member.(On an A-body)

 

[Greg55_99]

Not Mopar, but good info:

R154 adapted to AMC kit feeler

Greg

 

[96Formula6spd]

So we are going deep into the plunge. I ended up getting a bellhousing for free. Buddy worked at a junkyard and it had been on the shelf so long they just gave it to him. Needs a fork but that can be sourced.

But hey its Free. Which is nice since the few I could find were around $200-$450.

Today I was able to get a driveshaft yoke from a colorado. Good thing Gm uses the same driveshaft in auto and manual trucks. Someone was nice enough to cut the driveshafts on removal on the two 5spd trucks. Guess they wanted the yoke to plug the transmission. The one auto truck had a yoke still. Picking up the transmission soon will allow use to make sure. But I know GM is lazy in the drivesahft department. My 96 Firebird can use a 82-02 driveshaft. 4,6,8, auto, manual it does not matter. It actually has a later auto one in it now. Getting excited as ebay has a transmission at the local yard for $192. I can go pick it up. Might even be able to get it lower by calling. Just got to make sure its got the shifter on it. We are going to throw a new mount on it as a maintenance item. Looking good. Just got to start pulling stuff apart soon.

 

[96Formula6spd]

Well here it is.

Other work needs to be done but that is an ar-5 bolted to a 318.

 

[Kerry K]

I am wanting to do this on a magnum powered BMW I am building. I Know that the ma5 Colorado transmission has an input shaft about 3/8 inch longer than the ax15. Did you have any clearance issues such as the input shaft bottoming out on the pilot bearing? I have been investigating the possibility of swapping the ma5 input shaft with one from a ax15, that would make this swap easy but I cannot get a straight answer.
Personally I don't believe the claimed torque ratings on this transmission. The Supra and Lexus guys a making huge numbers with this tranny with little failures!

 

[96Formula6spd]

I am wanting to do this on a magnum powered BMW I am building. I Know that the ma5 Colorado transmission has an input shaft about 3/8 inch longer than the ax15. Did you have any clearance issues such as the input shaft bottoming out on the pilot bearing? I have been investigating the possibility of swapping the ma5 input shaft with one from a ax15, that would make this swap easy but I cannot get a straight answer.
Personally I don't believe the claimed torque ratings on this transmission. The Supra and Lexus guys a making huge numbers with this tranny with little failures!

So with our 95 bell hosing we have zero issues. Its actually pretty dam perfect for the input shaft length. Did the math and we had .012 inch of clearance. I am not sure with use on a 97+ bellhousing. I am finding that the first gen dakota bellhousing is different from the 97-00 style. Different starters and different slave cylinders tho we are using the 97+ style. We did end up going with a different pilot bearing. Originally had the colorado one but found making a spacer was going to be hard. So a teammate went into a bearing catalog at his work and found a different one. Shown here.

Bearing we used on top. Spacer made up. Colordo pilot bearing on the bottom. Bearing is SKF brand part number 6202 2RSJEM.

Spacer is a little loose. We used loctite. If it becomes a problem we will make a new spacer. Tho advance adapters had this bearing.

716120 : Pilot Bearing .590 ID X 1.818 OD | Advance Adapters

That might be the one to go with. We have not tested but its only .005 to big on the Inner Diameter and the Outer Diameter was close. Might need some light sanding on the crank side. We measured 1.812 this one is 1.818. I think it could be tapped in.

For the clutch we are using a dakota flywheel and clutch setup. We are using a clutch disc from a 1985 camaro with the t-5. Its the right size with the 26 inch spline count.

Right now we are going to get a Wilwood pedal as well as a few adpaters to make the slave line input fit for a an-3 line. None of that crappy quick disconnect fittings that you can not find anywhere.

Car started the first time over the weekend with the transmission bolted. Have some work to do but at least it starts.




If you have any other questions let me know. Always welcome to send me a pm.

 

[Kerry K]

Thanks for sharing this info. This helps a lot!

 

[Kerry K]

Did you use the Dakota bearing retainer or the Colorado?

 

[96Formula6spd]

Did you use the Dakota bearing retainer or the Colorado?

Colorado. We tested the fork with the slave bolted. Was worried about clearance issues. We would have been cheap and just shaved the bearing retainer. Really was thinking the bolts for the internal slave were going to be the proble. However we had plenty of room so bolted it together. We did have to shorten the bolts for the bellhousing. Also the Dakota housing was 8 bolts vs 9 for the colorado. Still pleanty. Either way top bellhousing bolts are stock mopar. Flywheel are arp for the factory coronet.

 

[Kerry K]

So a 96 or earlier bellhousing, Colorado bearing retainer, Colorado throw out bearing and arm, Dakota slave, Dakota clutch with gm disk and either a custom pilot bearing or the one from advanced adapters.
Am I missing anything?

 

[96Formula6spd]

So a 96 or earlier bellhousing, Colorado bearing retainer, Colorado throw out bearing and arm, Dakota slave, Dakota clutch with gm disk and either a custom pilot bearing or the one from advanced adapters.
Am I missing anything?

-Dakota bellhousing. Any ax15 one should work. Think it was 92-00. Just we have a 95. Have not tested with a 97-00 but it should work just fine. Clutch is the same 92-00 as well as the flywheel. Actually ebay has a 98 bellhousing looks the same as our 95.
- Dust sheild is NLA. So will have to hunt for one. Or make something up.
- Starter 143 tooth unit. Ours matched from a 5.2 95 Dodge ram. Came from a pick and pull. Seems the ax15 uses the older style starter. If raiding from a pick and pull the lower hole is a stud with a nut. You can not use the later bolted in style.
- Flywheel 3.9 Dakota 92-00
- Clutch kits Dakota 3.9 92-00
- Gm Disc. We used one from a 85 Camaro with a T-5. Disc is 26 spline. Used from the 70s-80s. 1 1/8 inch 26 spline unit. 10 3/8 inch diameter. Some places say 10.5 inch
- Clutch fork is 3.9 Dakota 92-00. Need the pivot ball and the spring from the Dakota.
- Throw out bearing is also 3.9 Dakota 92-00
- Pilot bearing will need to be either custom or the advance adapters unit could be used. We have not tested the advance adapters unit.
- Using the front case of from the Colorado that is unmodified.
- Yoke from the Colorado. Seems its the later Gm small unit. Ours is actually from a 4l60e. Ours was sourced from an automatic Colorado. Gm is lazy and has small yoke and big yoke for the 00s. Just need a small yoke. Uses a 1350 u-joint.
- Slave cylinder. We have a 97 style. It has a quick dissconect. We are going to swap to something like these.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/rus-640281. < Not actual part. Just looks like what we are using. For the pedal you can maybe use bmw. For us we are going with a Wilwood unit with a Wilwood master cylinder.

Bolts (Bolting to a 318 LA non Magnum)
- Flywheel we are using ones for a 318 mopar. ARP-240-2801
- Pressure Plate bolts are 3/8-16 - 1 inch long. Uses a lock washer from the factory.
- Bellhousing. We used factory 318 ones from our 727. 3/8-16 1.5 inches long.
- Bellhousing to transmission. We shortened ours down about a 1/4 of an inch. Bellhousing from the gm side is thicker than the dakota. Don't know thread pitch. One bolt will not be used. Colorado used 10. Dodge used 9. Still plenty.


As of now that is the current list. That does not mean things could change. Plan is to run it and then make up our list.