Wouldn't you be legal if you had a 80% receiver sitting there as an unfinished pistol.
Ar15 pistol
- Thread starter dartfreak75
- Start date
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Wouldn't you be legal if you had a 80% receiver sitting there as an unfinished pistol.
Hard to say, the BATFE rules are so convoluted and vague, and to date I have found no info regarding that.
BUT, since the 80% lower isn't considered a "firearm" I would lean toward no. In order to be legal I 'think' one needs to have a lower that is designated a pistol lower at point of sale.
gzig5
Well-Known Member
Not to add to the confusion but I don't think you need to do anything special if you start with a 80% 1911 lower and finish it yourself. When you are done you have a functional pistol that doesn't need special registration outside of communist states, right? Why would it be different on an AR lower, other than the ATF rules being mostly arbitrary and unintelligible?
It may not be, but the second part of your sentence is why I usually err on the side of caution.
It's legal for me in my state to build a rifle from an 80% lower as long as it is for me personally.
The issue I see is IF you were ever questioned on it how do you "prove" that 80% lower wasn't built as a rifle first? You can't build a pistol from a lower that was previously a rifle, conversely they would need to prove it was a rifle first. I just don't want the headache.
When I take my pistol to the range, I carry a copy of the 4473 showing it marked 'other', I carry a copy of the pistol registration form as well as the BATFE letters regarding the 'brace', because I know if ever questioned there will always be that "one" cop who will argue, lol.
dartfreak75
Restore it, Dont part it!
I have not been able to find anything about it but it seems to me as long as the 80% lower is completed and in pistol form you would be alright legally. But then again who knows you have to look at some of the stupid laws and look at who were dealing with. Lol
That's the problem, they tell you what you can't do, but not what is permissible.
When I spoke to someone at ATF I was told that if it isn't written that you can't, assume you can. Yeah, we ALL know what assume can get ya, lol.
dartfreak75
Restore it, Dont part it!
I dont see how they could prove anything either way. Especially if you have prove that you purchased the pistol parts. But then again look at who were dealing with lol
Idk how it the 80 would work in states that you have to register or have a permit for a pistol .
dartfreak75
Restore it, Dont part it!
I have you ever been questioned about it? Have you ever been watched or checked to see if your "shouldering" the brace? I think that is the stupidest stuff. What part of shall not be infringed do they not understand?
Nope, just prepared if'n I am.
Nope.
All of it...........lol.
gzig5
Well-Known Member
To that point, if you ever pursue clarification or a ruling with the ATF on something like this, do it all in writing. You don't want to have to rely on word of mouth of an agent that is no longer there or gives a crap if you are ever questioned. There are a lot of example of agents interpreting the rules differently.
70chall440
Mopar or No Car...
I've read this thread with some interest since I have been in the firearms industry for quite some time (worked for 2 major firearms companies), have dealt with the ATF directly many times, have had an FFL for many years and been involved with guns for well over 4 decades.
As stated and alluded to throughout this thread, the BATFE has a lot of "gray" areas when it comes to laws/rules and even more when it comes to enforcement of the rules they seemingly have. Someone posted an excerpt from a legal source with some bold text at the end and then pointed to it as being a rule to abide by in reference to having the parts to make a pistol or SBR. In general "if" you have "ALL" the parts to make a SBR in your possession you "could" be charged with the crime of maintaining an unregistered SBR; this is true generally. However, there is a huge amount of gray area here and merely having a barrel in and of itself is not illegal (you can go online and order them all day). What the ATF is interested in is if you are actively trying to build an SBR (or NFA) weapon illegally. It is true that "technically" you could be charged if you had a rifle and then a SBR upper with no other parts as it would indicate that you intended to develop a SBR illegally.
As it currently stands you can buy a AR lower receiver which when the 4473 is done should be listed as "receiver", then build a pistol (using a brace), if then sold it would be listed as a "pistol". That said, "technically" you cannot take an AR rifle, tear it apart and build a pistol (using a brace) by BATFE regulation. However, the SN to the weapon is not reported to the BATFE during the NICS process, only the name and pertinent details of the tranferee and type of firearm being transferred are (hand gun, long gun, other), so the BATFE does not know at this point what exact firearm is being transferred nor to they know its history past the point of the first sale by the manufacturer. Now, with this said I am in no was suggesting that it is ok to do anything, rather I am pointing out that until this firearm comes under the scrutiny of the BATFE (usually as part of a criminal investigation) they have no knowledge or what it is or was. But, on this note, say you did tear apart a rifle and built a pistol and then sold it to someone and down the line a crime was committed; they can (and very well may) go back up the line of custody to try and determine who did in fact convert it and you could be charged at that point.
Before I get besieged with haters I will say up front that the BATFE rules are gray for a reason, it allows them to leverage the law (many times incorrectly) as they deem necessary however it also provides a high degree of maneuver room for gun owners who understand the law and the BATFE. Most gun owners do not understand what is actually transmitted during a NICS background investigation and many people thing guns are truly "registered" every time they are purchased/sold; in fact they are registered at the local FFL location but not on a national level. The NICS investigation merely checks if the buyer is a Felon, on some terrorist watch list, etc. has little to nothing to do with the firearm. BUT if something happens (a crime is committed) the ATF will start digging especially if the weapon is different than what the manufacturer listed it as when it was made (they must report all production).
So, what if you bought a pistol (with a brace) at your local dealer? How do you know it was legally made that way? Well, if it is stamped "pistol" you might be good, you can contact the manufacturer and ask, but other than that there is no way to know. So does this make you a criminal if that firearm was converted? I would say no, especially if you bought through a dealer because what the BATFE is really interested in is the legal transfer of firearms and so long as the weapon is not illegal (NFA) they are not overly too concerned about it in my experience. This is not to say that they wouldn't become interested, but you have to understand there are a lot more gun owners than there are AFT agents and there are enough truly "bad apples" to keep them engaged.
Bottom line is this; if you are not trying to do something you know for a fact is illegal (such as making a full auto gun or SBR - aka NFA firearm) chances are you have little to fear from the ATF. Yes, you can run afoul of the ATF if you are not thinking but most who do are going well out of their way to be stupid.
Gun owners worst nightmare is not the anti gun people or the ATF, it is other gun owners who feel a need to blatantly go against the established laws; the people who are making FA guns, SBRs, suppressors, etc. when they know they are not supposed to.
As to the pistols themselves, I own 3 or 4 of them; a few 9mm's, a 5.56 and a 7.62x39. I generally run a 7-9" barrel except my MP5K.
As to 300BO, I have a long history with this and was involved in its creation. It has its place and was developed for a specific purpose. It is a good round for what it is, but it not a replaced for 5.56; definitely a lot of fun to shoot especially suppressed (using the 220g rounds).
Sorry for the long post, but there are many moving parts to these subjects.
As stated and alluded to throughout this thread, the BATFE has a lot of "gray" areas when it comes to laws/rules and even more when it comes to enforcement of the rules they seemingly have. Someone posted an excerpt from a legal source with some bold text at the end and then pointed to it as being a rule to abide by in reference to having the parts to make a pistol or SBR. In general "if" you have "ALL" the parts to make a SBR in your possession you "could" be charged with the crime of maintaining an unregistered SBR; this is true generally. However, there is a huge amount of gray area here and merely having a barrel in and of itself is not illegal (you can go online and order them all day). What the ATF is interested in is if you are actively trying to build an SBR (or NFA) weapon illegally. It is true that "technically" you could be charged if you had a rifle and then a SBR upper with no other parts as it would indicate that you intended to develop a SBR illegally.
As it currently stands you can buy a AR lower receiver which when the 4473 is done should be listed as "receiver", then build a pistol (using a brace), if then sold it would be listed as a "pistol". That said, "technically" you cannot take an AR rifle, tear it apart and build a pistol (using a brace) by BATFE regulation. However, the SN to the weapon is not reported to the BATFE during the NICS process, only the name and pertinent details of the tranferee and type of firearm being transferred are (hand gun, long gun, other), so the BATFE does not know at this point what exact firearm is being transferred nor to they know its history past the point of the first sale by the manufacturer. Now, with this said I am in no was suggesting that it is ok to do anything, rather I am pointing out that until this firearm comes under the scrutiny of the BATFE (usually as part of a criminal investigation) they have no knowledge or what it is or was. But, on this note, say you did tear apart a rifle and built a pistol and then sold it to someone and down the line a crime was committed; they can (and very well may) go back up the line of custody to try and determine who did in fact convert it and you could be charged at that point.
Before I get besieged with haters I will say up front that the BATFE rules are gray for a reason, it allows them to leverage the law (many times incorrectly) as they deem necessary however it also provides a high degree of maneuver room for gun owners who understand the law and the BATFE. Most gun owners do not understand what is actually transmitted during a NICS background investigation and many people thing guns are truly "registered" every time they are purchased/sold; in fact they are registered at the local FFL location but not on a national level. The NICS investigation merely checks if the buyer is a Felon, on some terrorist watch list, etc. has little to nothing to do with the firearm. BUT if something happens (a crime is committed) the ATF will start digging especially if the weapon is different than what the manufacturer listed it as when it was made (they must report all production).
So, what if you bought a pistol (with a brace) at your local dealer? How do you know it was legally made that way? Well, if it is stamped "pistol" you might be good, you can contact the manufacturer and ask, but other than that there is no way to know. So does this make you a criminal if that firearm was converted? I would say no, especially if you bought through a dealer because what the BATFE is really interested in is the legal transfer of firearms and so long as the weapon is not illegal (NFA) they are not overly too concerned about it in my experience. This is not to say that they wouldn't become interested, but you have to understand there are a lot more gun owners than there are AFT agents and there are enough truly "bad apples" to keep them engaged.
Bottom line is this; if you are not trying to do something you know for a fact is illegal (such as making a full auto gun or SBR - aka NFA firearm) chances are you have little to fear from the ATF. Yes, you can run afoul of the ATF if you are not thinking but most who do are going well out of their way to be stupid.
Gun owners worst nightmare is not the anti gun people or the ATF, it is other gun owners who feel a need to blatantly go against the established laws; the people who are making FA guns, SBRs, suppressors, etc. when they know they are not supposed to.
As to the pistols themselves, I own 3 or 4 of them; a few 9mm's, a 5.56 and a 7.62x39. I generally run a 7-9" barrel except my MP5K.
As to 300BO, I have a long history with this and was involved in its creation. It has its place and was developed for a specific purpose. It is a good round for what it is, but it not a replaced for 5.56; definitely a lot of fun to shoot especially suppressed (using the 220g rounds).
Sorry for the long post, but there are many moving parts to these subjects.
Exactly, that is what I am trying to get across. It's best to try and do it correctly to avoid any future issues.
Yes, I believe they came up with a lame phrase of "constructive possession".
Great post BTW!
After looking at several sources, it appears you can in fact use an 80% lower.
IF I were doing it, I would finish the lower with the appropriate FCU and pistol buffer tube, then I would order my upper. Not that anyone will bother you as mentioned above, for me it just felt the best way to go.
70chall440
Mopar or No Car...
Under the 80% rules, as long as you construct a "legal" firearm (meaning a firearm that the BATFE considers a class 1 such anything you would buy over the counter at a gun store) you are good. In other words, yes you can build a AR pistol using a 80% lower and a brace (but without a vertical pistol grip on the forearm). It is the same as any other AR pistol. Now, if the ATF ever reverses their decision on the use of a brace, then you would need to reconfigure it into a 16" carbine or rifle unless it was grandfathered.
70chall440
Mopar or No Car...
I realize that most are deathly afraid of the government especially the BATF, but unless you are on their radar for something else, the chances of being raided and found not in compliance with the law is severely remote. They are engaged full time with real criminals doing all sorts of nefarious things. My point is this, I would not hesitate to order all my parts in a pistol build as I know I am not out doing anything illegal or wrong.
Let me just add this, if you come under the ATFs radar because you are doing things you are not supposed to, they can absolutely find something they don't like to charge you because there are many many rules out there. Point in case, technically it is actually a violation of the BATFE's regulations to alter, modify or manufacture a firearm without a Class 7 (manufacturing) license. Again, technically this can (and has) been interrupted as the assembly of an AR, putting a bolt gun barreled action into a different stock, replacing the barrel of a rifle with one thicker, thinner, longer or shorter than it was originally manufactured with. The purpose of this law is related to taxes and by manufacturing a firearm you are supposed to be paying a manufacturing tax on the gun you have not made.
The ATF fully recognizes that hundreds of thousands of US citizens are "making" firearms daily (under the definitions of the rule) but they choose to ignore it because it is impossible to regulate given the 2nd amendment (and those willing to defend it legally), various US federal laws an a plethora of state ad local laws. However, if you were to come under their interest for something and pissed them off enough, they would happily invoke this law to their advantage (and win actually).
So, the point here is simple; stay within the admittedly loose bounds of the law and you will be fine, push these bounds at your own risk. The ATF can be a scary deal to be sure, but the vast majority of ATF agents I have dealt with are fine Americans just trying to get through their day as best as possible. I have seen them act completely opposite to what I (as a gun owner and FFL holder) would have thought them to (to the positive). Part of this is due to a wide variety of embarrassments over the years to include "fast and furious", etc. and a part is due to the agency understanding that the gun community in general will help them if they are not seen as the "bad guys".
Lastly, my point is that if you find a smoking deal on a 10" barrel or pistol upper but don't hae the money for the rest of it just yet (but have not intent to drop it on top of your carbine or rifle lower), I would not hesitate from buying it just because I didn't have the rest. The ATF isn't going to come kicking in your door unless you have something else going on. Now, if you have a douche neighbor, soon to be vindictive EX or some other malcontent who is just waiting to get something on you, then you might want to be a bit cautious, but even then its all about intent. I certainly would not drop that pistol upper onto my carbine lower and post a picture online (anywhere), hard to argue intent with a picture in hand.
Oh, before I forget; as for bringing copies of a 4473 or any other paperwork to the range, I wouldn't and don't because I comply with the laws. The vast majority of people do not understand the law and believe crap they are told by someone else who doesn't understand it. I can tell you that someone calling the ATF in most states is going to be met with "does he/she have a machine-gun?", if the answer is no and you are minding your own business you will be good. If some dick on the range wants to make a deal out of your legal gun then find a new range to shoot at. Oh and BTW, local cops don't know crap about firearm laws, so do not expect them to "understand" or be able to recite the law. Know the law and how you comply with them.
Let me just add this, if you come under the ATFs radar because you are doing things you are not supposed to, they can absolutely find something they don't like to charge you because there are many many rules out there. Point in case, technically it is actually a violation of the BATFE's regulations to alter, modify or manufacture a firearm without a Class 7 (manufacturing) license. Again, technically this can (and has) been interrupted as the assembly of an AR, putting a bolt gun barreled action into a different stock, replacing the barrel of a rifle with one thicker, thinner, longer or shorter than it was originally manufactured with. The purpose of this law is related to taxes and by manufacturing a firearm you are supposed to be paying a manufacturing tax on the gun you have not made.
The ATF fully recognizes that hundreds of thousands of US citizens are "making" firearms daily (under the definitions of the rule) but they choose to ignore it because it is impossible to regulate given the 2nd amendment (and those willing to defend it legally), various US federal laws an a plethora of state ad local laws. However, if you were to come under their interest for something and pissed them off enough, they would happily invoke this law to their advantage (and win actually).
So, the point here is simple; stay within the admittedly loose bounds of the law and you will be fine, push these bounds at your own risk. The ATF can be a scary deal to be sure, but the vast majority of ATF agents I have dealt with are fine Americans just trying to get through their day as best as possible. I have seen them act completely opposite to what I (as a gun owner and FFL holder) would have thought them to (to the positive). Part of this is due to a wide variety of embarrassments over the years to include "fast and furious", etc. and a part is due to the agency understanding that the gun community in general will help them if they are not seen as the "bad guys".
Lastly, my point is that if you find a smoking deal on a 10" barrel or pistol upper but don't hae the money for the rest of it just yet (but have not intent to drop it on top of your carbine or rifle lower), I would not hesitate from buying it just because I didn't have the rest. The ATF isn't going to come kicking in your door unless you have something else going on. Now, if you have a douche neighbor, soon to be vindictive EX or some other malcontent who is just waiting to get something on you, then you might want to be a bit cautious, but even then its all about intent. I certainly would not drop that pistol upper onto my carbine lower and post a picture online (anywhere), hard to argue intent with a picture in hand.
Oh, before I forget; as for bringing copies of a 4473 or any other paperwork to the range, I wouldn't and don't because I comply with the laws. The vast majority of people do not understand the law and believe crap they are told by someone else who doesn't understand it. I can tell you that someone calling the ATF in most states is going to be met with "does he/she have a machine-gun?", if the answer is no and you are minding your own business you will be good. If some dick on the range wants to make a deal out of your legal gun then find a new range to shoot at. Oh and BTW, local cops don't know crap about firearm laws, so do not expect them to "understand" or be able to recite the law. Know the law and how you comply with them.
I comply as well, the only reason "I" do it is because we have to register pistols with the state, I just have it in an envelope in the pocket of the case just in case I ever got stopped on the way to and from the range and I only do it for the AR pistol, none of my others..
There was a case here many years ago where a competition shooter lost a matching pair of 1911 pistols. The cop insisted something about them was wrong and confiscated them after he was pulled over for speeding. I lost track of the case, but I don't think he got them back.
I just don't trust some of the younger cops looking to score points.
74 DART'
Well-Known Member
I don’t see how this is going to get the Dart running any faster. Lol
70chall440
Mopar or No Car...
I completely understand and would say "do what you feel you need to". I have transported firearms across the country and into states with exceptionally restrictive firearms laws which in more times than not completely outlawed the firearms I had with me. In talking to law enforcement about it, more times than not they were absolutely clueless as to what was legal and wasn't and in every case when I explained what I was doing they said "well, that is an ATF issue and not my problem".
This brings up another issue which is state v. the ATF. If you state has laws/regulations above and beyond that of the ATF, the ATF will not enforce state laws and many states (or better said the people residing therein) believe the ATF will enforce them. In other words, many states enact laws and rules believing the federal government will deal with violators when in fact they will not, they (the ATF) will not get involved with state laws. The "learning" point here is that many states enact laws which it could be said infringe on the 2nd Amendment yet the federal government does nothing, this is because as far as the federal government is concerned, that law doesn't exist. Not advocating violating any law or rule, rather I am saying that many people spout this law and that law and being regulated by the BATFE when in fact it isn't. Again, do your research and know the law because I can guarntee you that the law enforcement official or local range dude doesn't.
70chall440
Mopar or No Car...
I was an avid AR15 owner, up until that tragic boat accident on the Mississippi River the other year. That said, I have never found myself a fan of AR or AK pistols. Mostly from a practicality and accuracy point but to each his own.
70chall440
Mopar or No Car...
Initially I was not a AR pistol fan but after I built a 9mm version I changed my mind. The AK pistol is a bit ridiculous actually and I only have one because I got a deal on it. The 5.56 version is also a bit much if shooting unsuppressed. Are they useful? Well I guess it depends on your point of view, they are fun and neat but I cannot say they are better than any 16" rifle, more of a novelty to be honest. Guns are tools and the AR (or AK) pistol is just another tool for a specific job, if you don't do that job or have no interest in doing it then you don't need one.
dartfreak75
Restore it, Dont part it!
What accident on the Mississippi river I'm not familiar with that?
dartfreak75
Restore it, Dont part it!
Yea I have too many hobbies lol
ohhh you know, the one near the Chain of Rocks Bridge? Kind of lost all my weapons, including those evil AR15s. They sank to the bottom...
dartfreak75
Restore it, Dont part it!
Oh crap no I never heard about that! That sucks what happened?
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