BoredandStroked
Well-Known Member
I dont trust carbon fiber because its like a ricer thing haha.
Beefing up a 727 trans!
- Thread starter BoredandStroked
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Guitar Jones
aka Angry Johnny
I've seen pics of the carbon fiber ones that did not contain the shrapnel and in fact did not hold up well at all.
ramcharger
Dismember
Guitar Jones said:
FYI A&A Transmissions offers a CNC milled 6 bolt bolt in sprag (need to drill two additional holes in the rear of the case) in a 16 roller design, considerably stronger than stock. I had my doubts regarding all the huballoo regarding the weak sprag mounting system myself until I tore my tranny down a couple weeks ago. A press fit splined outer sprag retainer held in by a tiny set screw doesn't seem to fit the bill when you think of what the sprag is asked to do. Just the fact that cheaper "bolt in case repair sprags" are availible points to a problem here.
My trans was behind a dead stock '74 2-barrel 360 rated @ 150 hp in 4000 lb 4x4. Granted, I don't know the previous history behind this truck, and it also appears that someone else was in this trans judging by the missing o-ring on the rear band apply lever pivot and the wad of silicon used to seal the leak, but the damage was appalling. The sprag spring retainer was severely gouged by the rollers, the outer sprag race had indents from the rollers, the rear clutch was burnt so bad that the steels were warped and looked like potato chips, also, the rear drum was horribly scored and the thrust washers all need replacing and shimming to get this thing in spec. Oh yeah, the selective snap rings had to be replaced to get the clutch packs within specs too.
In conclusion, just a stock rebuild on 727 behind 700 hp 'aint gonna cut it for any period of time. Even the hemi 727's had a five clutch deep style front clutch retainer straight from the factory, although I'm not aware if was made of the sintered iron found in the standard big and small block 727's. :toothy5:
Guitar Jones
aka Angry Johnny
ramcharger said:
A couple things first. I'm not going to argue with you, I don't know your experience level but mine has been a Chrysler tranny tech since 1975. Please read what I wrote carefully and what you wrote.
I said most bolt in sprags aren't any stronger than the stock ones and it's a true statement.
Secondly, 727's have been running behind all kinds of race engines for decades and not all of them blow up, in fact relatively few of them do.
Third, your experience of a 4000 pound 4x4 and a tranny that was in serious need of attention to begin with tells me that your experience is not typical. In fact if the band apply lever pivot was sealed with silicone this tells me whoever was working on it didn't know squat about it. A very questionable transmission that failed. Not surprising in my view and one that certainly doesn't justify the extreme measures you claim are necessary just for a 727 to survive in a 700 hp race car. Yes the Hemi cars came with 5 disc front clutches but there are 904's out there surviving behind higher HP applications than those. It was a bit of typical Chrysler overkill for the situation to reduce warranty costs and keep reliability high. If my near stock 904 lives behind 600 HP with a transbrake and has been nearly dead reliable I see no reason for a 727 not to be able to handle 700 HP with one band tied behind it's back.
So in conclusion I'll say that what you advocate will certainly get you a reliable tranny able to take some serious abuse, it's overkill for most situations. You simply don't need all that.
ramcharger
Dismember
Guitar, I just enjoy a good debate! No need to argue! :axe: I have respect for everyones opinion! The stupidest person I've ever met was the one who insisted that he knew it all!
I was a professional mechanic from '84 to '96 until I changed careers and decided to work on my own projects exclusively (except for the errant friend in need!). I've won three class championships ('92 '93 & '94) drag racing, two @ Great Lakes Dragway in Union Grove WI and one at Bandimere in Denver CO. Your transmision experience is far beyond mine as this is the only 727 I have rebuilt but not the only automatic.
You are right regarding the "questionable nature" of the last guy's rebuild as I am finding all kinds of "turd trails" the further I get into this thing. As I type this on my keyboard on my garage computer, I am preparing to slide in a new rear drum and reassemble this trans. All subassemblies have been prepared with the exception of the thrust washers and selective snap rings to set my front and rear clutch clearances as well as the planetary gear train clearances. I just like to take my time and surf the web (and have a beer!) while I work.
Since my experience with the 727 is limited, I bought two manuals and am going by "the book". Before I even hit page one, I found "It is the opinion of the author, as well as other prominent racing transmission builders, that any racing Torqueflight must be equipped with an aluminum front clutch retainer (drum), bolt in rear overrunning clutch race, and an SFI-Approved saftey shield. In addition, a valve body that applies the low-reverse band in manual low is essential." I need to get back to my own junk now, but they say that if you don't, you may as well put a hand grenade in your trans. :shock:
To top it off, there is a local radio DJ here who runs a high 9 low 10 sec Charger that blew his trans. Of course, he broke a driveshaft and his trans guy never told him to yank the trans and have him check it out.
After seeing what I saw and reading what I read, and knowing that the original poster was of school age and building a 700 hp race car, i suggested what I thought was prudent, given the unknown skill level of the rebuilder and/or driver as the consequences could be life shattering.
So, if you know something everyone else does not, including the sponsor of this forum "Andrews Transmissions", please enlighten all of us. I say this not to be a butthead, but are all these guys wrong and just trying to sell us parts we don't need? :dontknow:
I was a professional mechanic from '84 to '96 until I changed careers and decided to work on my own projects exclusively (except for the errant friend in need!). I've won three class championships ('92 '93 & '94) drag racing, two @ Great Lakes Dragway in Union Grove WI and one at Bandimere in Denver CO. Your transmision experience is far beyond mine as this is the only 727 I have rebuilt but not the only automatic.
You are right regarding the "questionable nature" of the last guy's rebuild as I am finding all kinds of "turd trails" the further I get into this thing. As I type this on my keyboard on my garage computer, I am preparing to slide in a new rear drum and reassemble this trans. All subassemblies have been prepared with the exception of the thrust washers and selective snap rings to set my front and rear clutch clearances as well as the planetary gear train clearances. I just like to take my time and surf the web (and have a beer!) while I work.
Since my experience with the 727 is limited, I bought two manuals and am going by "the book". Before I even hit page one, I found "It is the opinion of the author, as well as other prominent racing transmission builders, that any racing Torqueflight must be equipped with an aluminum front clutch retainer (drum), bolt in rear overrunning clutch race, and an SFI-Approved saftey shield. In addition, a valve body that applies the low-reverse band in manual low is essential." I need to get back to my own junk now, but they say that if you don't, you may as well put a hand grenade in your trans. :shock:
To top it off, there is a local radio DJ here who runs a high 9 low 10 sec Charger that blew his trans. Of course, he broke a driveshaft and his trans guy never told him to yank the trans and have him check it out.
After seeing what I saw and reading what I read, and knowing that the original poster was of school age and building a 700 hp race car, i suggested what I thought was prudent, given the unknown skill level of the rebuilder and/or driver as the consequences could be life shattering.
So, if you know something everyone else does not, including the sponsor of this forum "Andrews Transmissions", please enlighten all of us. I say this not to be a butthead, but are all these guys wrong and just trying to sell us parts we don't need? :dontknow:
Guitar Jones
aka Angry Johnny
ramcharger said:
Well I don't know who's book you are reading but with the exception of the shield (which I think is essential) I can say that properly built torqueflites properly maintained (like taking it apart after a driveline failure) have been running in race cars for decades without failure before any of the items mentioned even existed. Granted they were developed to combat a known weak area in the TF but essentially it was only really a problem when the trans was not used properly (1st gear burnouts), not built properly (as in your case), or not maintained properly (see above).
As I said, the items you mention will provide for a near bulletproof trans but unless you are talking blown, turbocharged, or lots of N2O I don't think it's necessary. Proper care and feeding is however essential. In every example you mentioned there was an error of some sort, by either the operator or the builder, that lead to the failure. It was not because the basic trans was not up to the task.
It's a pet peeve of mine I guess as I see it as a dumbing down to the lowest common denominator in our society. It's the reason all 2007 passenger vehicles in this country have to have low tire pressure sensors on them, because people are too lazy or stupid to check their air pressure and you end up with the Exploder/Firerock debacle. So now everyone has to pay more for a vehicle because of the lazy/stupid ones.
So I guess, yeah, if you aren't going to take care of your trans, follow the precautions or just generally beat the crap out of it, abuse and ignore it, than yes, you need those things.
There is a company called ProTrans that makes 727's with 904 guts in them for the stock and super stock racers. The SS/AH cars used to run them but I was told by one of those racers they are only good to about 850 HP. That's 850 HP on 904 internals. Granted they are a lot of aluminum and billet hard parts but the clutches and bands are the same. That will make you rethink just how much clutch friction material area you really have to have.
DISCLAIMER
Again, my opinions are just that, opinions. Do not take them and use them against me I am only offering my experiences as they pertain to me. Your mileage may vary. If any of you are one of those people that need tire pressure monitors, I'm sorry.
ramcharger
Dismember
Guitar, you are correct about my first hand experience. Every bad 727 that I have seen has been abused, poorly maintained or poorly rebuilt. Everything else was second hand experience.
So here's my question to you, a factory trained 727 technician. Given that they stopped making the 727 in the mid eighties (I think), that would make the very newest 727s twenty or so years old, right? Most guys who don't want to get into the tranny will take it to thier local rebuilder like an AAMCO. Would an AAMCO rebuild handle 600 to 700 hp with all stock parts? If the answer is no, what specifically would you do to make sure it could? This question is made with the assumption that a safety sheild is in place and all maintenance and burnout precautions are followed. Also, being that my suggested build is overkill, could that build handle 1000 or even 1500hp?
By the way, the book I quoted was "The 727 handbook by Carl H. Munroe".
And yes, a label on a cup of coffee warning you that it's hot is about as stupid as it gets. :tard:
So here's my question to you, a factory trained 727 technician. Given that they stopped making the 727 in the mid eighties (I think), that would make the very newest 727s twenty or so years old, right? Most guys who don't want to get into the tranny will take it to thier local rebuilder like an AAMCO. Would an AAMCO rebuild handle 600 to 700 hp with all stock parts? If the answer is no, what specifically would you do to make sure it could? This question is made with the assumption that a safety sheild is in place and all maintenance and burnout precautions are followed. Also, being that my suggested build is overkill, could that build handle 1000 or even 1500hp?
By the way, the book I quoted was "The 727 handbook by Carl H. Munroe".
And yes, a label on a cup of coffee warning you that it's hot is about as stupid as it gets. :tard:
Guitar Jones
aka Angry Johnny
ramcharger said:
Hard to say as each trans has it's own peculiarities and each rebuild is subject to the rebuilders limitations as well. Most independent rebuilders don't replace worn or broken hard parts with new ones, they replace them with "good" used ones. That is how they rebuild them so cheap. At the dealership you get new parts if the old ones were out of spec. So if the trans is brought back up to spec's than yes I would say it should handle it.
Once you start approaching 1000 HP though you better be talking with a race trans builder with an established reputation. That's what I'd do although I wouldn't be afraid to do the build myself, I certainly would consult with someone with more experience at that level.
BoredandStroked
Well-Known Member
Well dang just phone each other why dont you two! Just playing around but anyways, we been talking about 700 horsepower handling transmissions but what about a 500 horsepower one in about 3000 or 3200 lbs car? Now dont get me wrong, I love horsepower and the shear sound of it but the cops in my area are starting to get to know me a bit better and not in the good way.
Guitar Jones and Ramcharger I thank you two and admire how you debate and talk about things in a calm way. Being safe is number 1 but right behind in number 2 is having fun. I do want a manual reverse shifter in my Dart just for the fact I like to be a part of the car as much as possible and just trying to work with what I got. So in a nice little list Guitar Jone and Ramcharger let me hear what you think a 500 hp car would need and a 700 hp car would need. By the way... no burnouts in 1st gear? Explain why a little bit please, kind of curious as to why not.
P.S. ... If you want to stay cool with the police dont steal their hubcaps and hide them and dont steal the hubcaps and duck tape them all over the light bar, even if you do know them. I did however get props for how fast I did it!
Guitar Jones and Ramcharger I thank you two and admire how you debate and talk about things in a calm way. Being safe is number 1 but right behind in number 2 is having fun. I do want a manual reverse shifter in my Dart just for the fact I like to be a part of the car as much as possible and just trying to work with what I got. So in a nice little list Guitar Jone and Ramcharger let me hear what you think a 500 hp car would need and a 700 hp car would need. By the way... no burnouts in 1st gear? Explain why a little bit please, kind of curious as to why not.
P.S. ... If you want to stay cool with the police dont steal their hubcaps and hide them and dont steal the hubcaps and duck tape them all over the light bar, even if you do know them. I did however get props for how fast I did it!
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