Burning up pushrods!

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If I saw that much oil coming out of the rockers, and didn’t know you were having heat related problems…… I’d have said you had “too much” oil up top.

One a typical brand X engine with a roller cam and edge orifice pushrod oiling……..there probably isn’t one tenth that amount of oil at each rocker.

I will say I don’t really like the way the wear pattern looks up near the widest part of the ball.

B59FD1A0-640B-4655-B124-AB32FE6DA570.jpeg
 
“If it were me”, I’d still see about peeling apart a scrap VC so I could look at what the oiling to the pushrods is like with the engine running.

Especially after seeing how much oil is coming from the rockers.
 
PRH said:
If I saw that much oil coming out of the rockers, and didn’t know you were having heat related problems…… I’d have said you had “too much” oil up top.

One a typical brand X engine with a roller cam and edge orifice pushrod oiling……..there probably isn’t one tenth that amount of oil at each rocker.

I will say I don’t really like the way the wear pattern looks up near the widest part of the ball.

View attachment 1716412538
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I’m with you PRH,,,,,it doesn’t look right to me .
The coating is completely worn off of the ball area that makes contact .
Looks like high mileage stuff to me ,,,,brand new stuff should still be hard coated for a while yet .

Tommy
 
PRH said:
If I saw that much oil coming out of the rockers, and didn’t know you were having heat related problems…… I’d have said you had “too much” oil up top.

One a typical brand X engine with a roller cam and edge orifice pushrod oiling……..there probably isn’t one tenth that amount of oil at each rocker.

I will say I don’t really like the way the wear pattern looks up near the widest part of the ball.

View attachment 1716412538
Click to expand...


I agree with how it looks but with all that oil there I’m trying to think of how there is that much wear.
 
My thinking is, that after the engine oil is all heated up, and with the interrupted oiling coming thru the cam, and the engine sitting there idling away…….the oil coming out of the rockers is not “shooting” out of the rocker into the pushrod(like in the vid), but could just be an oozing stream that ends up running down the rocker body.

Perhaps with the engine running and the top end being fed by the interrupted thru cam oiling, the “leaks”(oiling holes in the rockers) are too big/too many to allow oil pressure to build within the shaft.

I’ll add this, on a BB with Indy heads that are fed(full time) with the external lines, I use one .060” hole to feed the whole side.
When running the priming tool I feel there is “plenty” of oil getting to the rockers……and what’s coming out of them to oil the pushrods is way less than what’s coming out of those W2 rockers, based off watching what’s happening when priming.
 
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Newbomb Turk said:
I agree with how it looks but with all that oil there I’m trying to think of how there is that much wear.
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I am still of the opinion that the damage shown in the first two pictures in post #72 is the culprit it shows that the tip if the cup is contacting the side of the adjuster screw making divots and heating the cup. As I suggested grind the top of the cup off to just below the damage area grind a chamfer on the cup inside remove the sharp edge form the outside reassemble and check if the cup now clears the screw?
I am not just throwing this up when we built the Chevy LS engines to run in the Daytona 24hr race without self destructing we spent hrs setting up, preassembling, engineering the push rod rocker geometry's, we had eight different push rod lengths to accomplish this. So I know whereof I speak.

First time out in a Daytona prototype we were leading the race going into the last hour pitstop came out in the lead got bumped off by a Corvette came back on in 3rd finished second. We had three engines in the field, one threw a rod, one dropped a valve, one finished second.
 
I don’t have it in my hand so I can’t say with any certainty what I’m looking at, but…….if you’re referring to what’s on the edge of the pushrod cup, it just looks like remnants of assembly grease to me.

429018E7-86DB-495E-AFBF-620276C2285A.jpeg

But I agree……if those are surface defects that don’t just wipe off, whatever is causing that needs attention.
 
PRH said:
I don’t have it in my hand so I can’t say with any certainty what I’m looking at, but…….if you’re referring to what’s on the edge of the pushrod cup, it just looks like remnants of assembly grease to me.

View attachment 1716412640
But I agree……if those are surface defects that don’t just wipe off, whatever is causing that needs attention.
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Yeah I still think it would be a good idea to shorten up the cup so it is lower than the top of the ball so the oil spray from the rocker is actually hitting the ball and not the outside of the pushrod.
Also as mentioned above measure all the oil hole dia. of the shaft and add them together to get a actual total dia. do same with the rockers and compare that number to the dia of the oil feed gallery. If those numbers are bigger than the feed there is to much leakage.
You must remember that on shaft style rockers the rockers closest to the oil supply hole will be the least lubed as the oil will fill the shaft from the blocked end back filling towards the feed hole so the two rockers either side of the feed will be last to get oil. OH by the way that also applies to crankshafts.
 
Apologies if I missed it in the thread, do your pushrods have holes in the cup, and down at the ball end where it seats in the lifter? Nature of my question is that if they do, is it possible that the little bit of oil that’s getting into the cup from the top is draining out at the bottom rather than staying in the cup? Also, I think someone else mentioned that the wear pattern on the adjuster balls looks like most of the wear is on the edges rather than spread across the entire ball. A new set of adjusters that are matched to the pushrods with your next order may help since it looks like Smith sells those as well (looked like ~$112 on their website for the set of adjusters). Last but not least, and before abandoning the W2 setup, T&D has a W2 rocker setup where the oil feed is to the drilled adjuster so the oil gets pressure fed directly into the cup…spendy, but cheaper than a new set of heads.

Sorry for your losses, hoping you get this thing figured out!!!
 
Alfajim said:
I am still of the opinion that the damage shown in the first two pictures in post #72 is the culprit it shows that the tip if the cup is contacting the side of the adjuster screw making divots and heating the cup.
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Those pictures are not of my parts. Those were posted by @Rocket in an effort to show how much wider the cups are on the Mopar Performance pushrods compared to the other ones (that appear to have damage on the top). They look like Comp pieces to me but I’m only speculating. The tops of my rods do not have any damage.
 
I’m on the hunt locally for a “junk” valve cover that I can cut apart and see what’s happening while the engine is idling.
 
SSG_Karg said:
Mike @ B3 did the setup. #5E is a couple thou high but the rest are dead nuts.

View attachment 1716412507View attachment 1716412508

I think it looks that way because these are a set of bastardized rockers. At least 3 different brands that are all slightly different castings. The exhaust rockers are all the same but the 2 left intakes and 2 right intakes are different manufacturers. Also two different types of adjusters. View attachment 1716412515


Impossible to get a good picture of that because of the glare, but it looks good to me. View attachment 1716412513View attachment 1716412514
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Those balls look exactly as I guessed in post #76, ....how about a good shot of the pushrod cup as PRH showed one, that is going to tell Us more.
 
Mr. Sinister said:
I see it like this.
Ask for help read the replies, evaluate what you have and have not done and try what sounds like the best advice. Because even the world’s best cardiologist can’t perform heart surgery over the phone…. and he works on them while they are running. JM2C
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Not for valve replacement, they turn it off for a little while…
 
PRH said:
Any updates/news?
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I sent the rocker arms away to RAS to have a groove cut in the bushings that will intersect the oiling holes. Also ordered a new set of ball adjusters from Smith Brothers since mine were getting pretty mangled. Once the rockers come back I will reassemble and test. If that doesn’t work I may try to find a different set of rods with a wider mouth at the top of the cup. If that doesn’t work I will probably pull the heads and modify for full time oiling.
 
SSG_Karg said:
I sent the rocker arms away to RAS to have a groove cut in the bushings that will intersect the oiling holes. Also ordered a new set of ball adjusters from Smith Brothers since mine were getting pretty mangled. Once the rockers come back I will reassemble and test. If that doesn’t work I may try to find a different set of rods with a wider mouth at the top of the cup. If that doesn’t work I will probably pull the heads and modify for full time oiling.
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Any cleaned pics of pushrod cup(s)?
 
I would be inclined to cut a small chamfer on the inside wall of the cup mouth. Lathe or careful use of a round stone larger than the pocket should work. The chamfer would carry some oil. Just seems like the way the cup fits the ball so tight, all the oil is getting wiped out as the parts pivot. I could be wrong but if the cup diameter and ball diameter are the same, there isn’t much room for an oil film with the spring pressure. I’d think the cup should be a little bigger than the ball to allow space for the film, just like bearings don’t work if the clearance is too tight. Don’t know how they could mess up the cup size though?
 
SSG_Karg said:
What do you mean by cleaned pics? Close up pics of parts after they have been cleaned? If so, I can get some.
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....yes, pics of the pushrod cups involved with the scored adjuster balls, from the top....the side tells Us nothing other than how it appears to be. The contact witness marks/pattern is what We're after here.
 
SOLVED!!! (I think…)

Here’s what I tried and the corresponding results:
1. Longer pushrods- no improvement
2. Even longer pushrods- no improvement
3. Re-drilled oiling holes in shafts so all holes lined up with holes in rockers while valve on the seat- no improvement.
4. New adjustment screws from Smith Brothers (all pushrods were also from them) - no improvement
5. Sent rocker arms to Rocker Arm Specialties and had a groove put into the bushing to increase oil flow- no improvement.
Up to this point I would only put 20 or 30 street miles on it and pull the valve covers to inspect and every time the pushrod cups were turning pretty shades of blue and gold.
6. Finally decided to try a different brand of pushrods. Went with Comp Cams. Installed, tested, and inspected. - no evidence of overheating!!

Very early on in this cluster, I suspected that the cup on the Smith Brothers pushrods and the ball on the adjuster screw were too tight fitting. I could put a drop of oil in the cup, stick an adjuster screw into the cup and it would actually create suction and they would “stick” together slightly. Enough that the pushrod would hang from the adjuster ball for a second or two.
The cups on the Comp rods are a different shape, more of a cone whereas the Smith rods are more of a bowl.
I think the Smith rods fit so precisely that there isn’t adequate space for the oil to get around the ball. I’m using factory oiling through the shafts and out the back of the rocker for the rods. If I were oiling up through the pushrods I’m sure it wouldn’t be an issue. I can’t blame Smith Brothers at all. Their products are top notch and held up to being overheated again and again, but they didn’t work in my situation.

So now I’ve got 100 or so street miles and 3 passes on the track with the Comp rods in place and no signs of overheating them. I’ll be keeping an eye on things for the rest of this season and update as necessary when I put her to bed for winter.
 

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