Car Building Philosophy ?-long!

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jeeper

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I have been collecting alot of stuff to build my 73 Duster. I have collected alot of information here. Lots of books, most of which I have read.

Parts, lots there as well. Lately I have collected a 360, speed parts for it, some drivetrain pieces as well. I almost wonder if I have gone to far.

I was hoping for a high 13 second car for now. I have driven cars that truthfully were probably 15 second cars before. Not very exciting.

As I am preparing to remove weight, install 4.10's and a 3K stall I am wondering.....have I gone to far before I have even started?

I pay alot of attention to those who have trod the road before me. I talked to a guy at the track who had a 13 second flat car. He drove it everywhere. He wanted to go faster. He now has a 12.5 second car that idles over 1000 rpm, won't hardly go 60 and gets mid single digits for mpg. He hates it....

As a teacher I always preach the big P when modifying a car. What is your purpose? What do you want?

I know what happens when I whack up a Jeep, been there forever.

What started this whole thing is this morning I started my car, a bone stock 318 and it went on a nice high idle. It is relatively quiet. Super reliable, fairly snappy I guess. I'm asking, do I want to mess this up? The first half decent old car that I have had?

Wow, what a ramble.

Here is my question, have you ever "ruined a car" with mods and wished you have left it alone?

At this point, I almost considering two cars. One a stripped out borderline strip car that I can drive on the street. Another, more of a Cruiser.

Thoughts? Hate mail? Tell me to shut up?

Thanks as always, ROB
 
Rob,
I went through the same thing when I decided to build a big block a-body. The original thought was lots of horsepower, etc. etc. I got the car body (67 Dart GT with no engine or trans) and started to collect parts. As the process wore on the build got milder and milder.

In the end the factors were driveability and PURPOSE. I wasn't going to go to the drag strip, but I was going to drive the car to work, the store, Los Angeles (not very often as I tend to avoid the place). I also wanted something that was reasonably decent on fuel. But, I still wanted something with gobs of torque and that was "fast enough".

So, I completely changed ideas, but not what I was building. I decided to build something that would be like a factory show car showcasing upcoming options. So I built the car with all factory parts. Mild 440, hemi four speed, Ramcharger ram air from a 69 Super Bee, Barracuda dash, Hurst shifter in the console with a Charger clock, 15" rallye wheels, etc. What I got was a well balanced big block, four speed a-body that I could and DID drive anywhere, until it met a guard rail at the hands of my then-17yo son. The entire car was resurrected in a new body, my younger son's 67 Dart GT convertible, which he has NOT put into a guard rail or anything else (I did come close when I blew out the left front tire at 70mph around a sweeping right hander on 101 in San Luis Obispo).

So a long answer to basically agree with you about the build. For me it was about the car being what I needed and wanted. Even though the 440 is getting a little tired, I'd jump in the car right now, gas it up , and drive 250 miles if I needed to.
 
I will know on Sunday if the 440 is mine. The guy has been difficult to deal with on occasion so I am not holding my breath.

I have to think that my philosophy is similar to yours as far as the build goes. I do want to be able to drive to another town that is around 200 miles away.

I would imagine that a 440 with headers and a small cam would probably get me 13's with some 3.55's. Probably be quite a bit more driveable as well.

HMMMM......
 
I know what you are going through. I was going in that direction with my 73 Dart Sport. It was a 340 car with 727 tranny and 323 gears. A nice cruiser that got 14-16 mpg and would probably run some mid 14's. I thought I wanted to make myself a fast street car so I bought a set of W2 heads, a big cam and 4.56 gear for the rearend. Well there was no gas mileage and 4.56 gears are not made for cruising around and the engine combo was all wrong so it did not perform that well either. No fun to drive anymore. I bought another engine that does perform but then I decided my car was to nice to cut up so i bought another 73 dart sport that was already set up for racing. My original dart will now go back to its stock form. The 340 engine will get a slightly larger hydraulic cam but will be a nice cruiser that me and the wife can make some of the cruises and shows in. Then I will have the best of both worlds but as much as I like the speed I think the race car would have to go before the cruiser.

You can build yourself a nice 13 second cruiser fairly cheap with the 360 and still get decent mileage and good drivability. A 13 or even 14 second car will burn the tires at will and travel as fast as most people need to go with a set of 355 gears. Some of my best memories were in my stock 71 340 four speed Cuda and 73 340 Challenger. Both had lots of power but could be driven across country or in heavy traffic with ease. Question is do you want a race car or cruiser?
 
less is more......i have overbuilt before as well. boy did i regreat it. never again.
 
i'm riding a wave here... and am about to run outta room...

what i mean is my car that i have been workin on since 1992 is at that point.... i get 12 sec timeslips, 16 mpg's and 3.23's to drive all over, but i got an itch to go faster... i'm plannin on going to another car to do what i want.... its not gonna work inthis car to keep it on the street and go as fast as i want AND be able to drive it as much as i want...

so yeah.. i hear ya!
 
Thats pretty much how I feel. I just keep working on it though. It gets further and further from a street car as I go. No heat, no radio back seats gone, fuel cell, race gas.

If I could do it over again things would be a lot differant.
 
Adam, How would you do things differently?

I am just dipping my feet in the pool and I want to have my head in the game before I dive.

I was able to keep my truck at DD status with 38" tires and get 18 MPG. It was a compromise, but it worked.

Cars not sure yet on what exactly I want. I know when I go to the races I get to thinking a 12 second car would be great. And then I contemplate that for the 3 hours it takes me to get home.....

It is going to take some more thought here.

Thanks for the advice and mental meanderings, ROB
 
I wouldnt have cut the car up for starters. I would have kept the stock gas tank, the heater, back seat, front bench seat. I could have made the car plenty fast without cutting it up and gitting it. But now that all those parts are gone its easier to just build it this way.

I think a lot of it is just being bored with the car after owning it for 10 years and not being able to drive it the last year.

If I were to do another car I would save up and find a stock rust free slant 6 70-74 Dart. Leave the body stock except for a nice bolt on 6 pack hood. Use as much tire as I could get in it without moving springs or mini tubbing. Low key color like gold or green and some nice rims.

Id leave the interior stock except for a 8 pont bar. That means bench seat and AM radio. Add a few (not 10) aftermarket guages.

Keep the stock fuel tank and update the sender and fuel line to 3/8 and use a good mech pump.

stuff my 500hp 340 in it with some 3.91 gears and go play. Low maintenance and no unnecessary flash. I got to carried away with the Barracuda for a 11 second car.
 
Your idea sounds similar to mine Adam.

How radical is a .484 in a 360 with a 3K stall and 4.10's for street duty? I realize this is subjective.

I will run some 28"ish tires on it. I mainly want to drive it to work once a week and then go run it at the strip 5-8 times a summer if that.

It will probably see a couple of 3-4 hour trips a year. I mainly want something that is going to get it on when I stab the gas.

I have zero intentions of fuel cells, etc.

Just real basic stuff like subframe connectors, driveshaft loops. Maybe some better springs and shocks for the launch. At this point I am not after a "G" machine thing with it.

My main attraction since I was an infant basically is how much you can do with a Mopar for so little. It helped that my dad worked for Chrysler and his friend was and is a Mopar enthusiast.

Thanks, ROB
 
I think you'll be ok with the 484" if thats all you plan on driving it.
 
hm this is making me question my cudas plans, id like it to be 12s street, and all interior, hmm i really need to kick my friends tt 300zx bad too haha, maybe i am getting ahead of myself, concidering i will end up just crusing/going to work in it
 
484 isn't too much. I'm running a 475/455 in my 360.

I find it interesting that you actually stopped to think about it. A good friend is building a '71 Mach 1, 351 Ram Air 'stang. I think he is gonna go too far. He is SOOO wanting to go fast that he has built a 351 that is just nuts: half filled block, 600 lift cam, big heads, 12.5:1 CR, dynoed nearly 600hp and will require at least a partial mix of race gas. Plus he wants to go with 4.30 gears - In a road car...He has no intention of hacking up the original sheetmetal or adding a cage. I told him it's not gonna be very fun to drive on the highway, but he said it's gonna be an "around town" car. I think he is in for a rude awakening.

I am looking at my car as an "improved" version of the original. My goal is to have a car that is perfectly reliable and streetable. The motor is a "conservative" sub-400hp 360. I upgrade as I go, and anything around the 13 second mark will make me happy. it will spend most of it's life on the road, so that is more important than the times it will turn at the track.

I did take out the back seat, mostly because none of my friends will fit back there. It will get carpeted and have a crossbar installed to mount my racing harness' to. Also, I ditched the A/C..primarily because it was shot. I will most likely install a modern system in the future. It's mostly a luxury, so it can wait until I have the mechanical stuff all finished.

I personally wouldn't go to 3.91...but that's me. Some people say they are OK on the highway, but my dad and I had a '70 Swinger 340 with 3.91s, and that thing was just screamin at any modern highway speeds (65-70mph). I would REALLY like to do a 4.10 rear with an A-500 OD automatic, but the cost is prohibitive at the time.
 
You can do 12s and be streetable. My car is being set up for mid to low 11s. With me its not even a streetable thing is comfort and to much unnecessary changes.
 
You can do it to a race car too, and just as fast. Case in point. Having to buy a 9k dollar 500ci big bolck to back up the pro street locking car you made that got laughed at with a weak 440 in it. Then thre are the little things like finding out you have to move the master cylinder under the floor because those new flashy valve covers wont come off. Next your stock front drums are in question because of the speed and if your gonna change that out a new front clip seems like the way to go....Now you have less of a car and more of two metal pipes with a red shell and four tires. Not to metion even if I wanted to run it on the street its so low a 4in bump in the road would rip the car from pan to pan.
 
jeeper, if you ever make it down to the central San Joaquin Valley look me up. I'll take you for a ride in my son's Dart. Remember we also have a stone-stock 68 340 GTS convertible. The stock 340 seems almost pedestrian compared to Jeff's mild 440. I'd give you a ride in the 340 car, but it has no seats bolted in and no tires at the moment (or anytime in the near future).
 
Jeeper. Sounds like the set up in my Duster. 73- 340 with a
Mopar 484 cam. Have a 3000 stall behind it. I have 2 sets of
gears for it. I run 3.23s on the street and have a set of
4.30s for the strip. She runs 13.00s. Wanted to be in the 12.90s
before winter. Went to the strip this past weekend. 13.08 with
a good (or bad) head wind. Would have had the 12.90s. This car
is a good all around car. This looks like what you are looking
for. If you car have the 2 sets of gears you can have a good
all around car. Try it. Green Duster.
 
What I am trying to avoid is a common problem that I see all the time with 4x4's. I am not interested in buying 4 camshafts, three rear ends and 5 carbs if I can help it.

Guys buy a truck and then skip every other inch in tire size until they end up with 40's. I'd rather just start with at least the 36's!

I hope my intended combo will get me to the 13's or close. My biggest concern is gear, but I think with some taller tires I can make it work for now. The truth is that I got a very good deal on the rear end with the gears and sure-grip installed. I would have aimed for more 3.55's or the new 3.73's.

Thanks for your honesty and help. It takes guts to admit that you messed up or are unhappy with the changes.

ROB
 
jeepers,
your headed in the right direction.
success goes hand and hand with stated goal and
detailed planning.
your will end up with a well balanced machine that will be and do more than you expected and probably be under budget.

:wav: :wav: :wav: :wav:

good luck
longarm
 
Well thanks to the board and a $180.00 rear 8 1/4" I am off. I still need headers, and transmission pieces etc. The big ticket items are largely here now.

I am currently finishing off some truck stuff. Once that happens I am set to start on the Duster after X mas. The goal is to drive it to work after spring break.

We are going to install homemade subframe connectors etc.

It is fun starting something new. I have done the Jeep swap thing so much that I even put a Toyota engine etc. in one. Not a bad Jeep but it did raise eyebrows......

ROB
 
Jeeper, I'm going to put my 2 cents worth of experience in here for you also. When you build any type of vehicle that goes ANYWHERE above stock specs, then everything becomes a compromise - remember that word - COMPROMISE. If you go too big on the cam, then you compromise the bottom end,. Then you need steeper gears and a higher stall converter to overcome the loss of bottom end. Now that we have that big cam, converter, and gears, we might as well put on a bigger intake and carb - and there goes the bottom end again. Compromise.
I've built and street/strip raced Chebbies and Mopars for the past 40 years, and I'll admit that the need for speed compromised a couple of my cars. There comes a point when the speed demon compromises your ability to drive your wheels on the street without having a frustration fit each time you take it out for a spin. If you want to street drive your car, and not be constantly worried about overheating in traffic, or having to keep revving it at each traffic light just to keep the darned thing running, stay on the conservative side of the line. A fairly quick car that idles all day long in traffic and can still blow the doors off the Rustang or Marshmaro in the next lane is much more enjoyable than the tempramental race car that you're trying to drive on the street.
My little 66 Vart has a 360, 484 cam, LD340 manifold, Carter AFB carb, dual exhaust through the original 273 manifolds, 3.23 and 3.91 gearsets, and a 727 tranny with a TF2 shift kit. This is NOT a race car, but it is one hell of a nice street car. It can hold its own against almost anything on the street, and still drive all day in hot or cold weather. I've driven this thing across Canada twice and have never had a hitch with it on either of those 8000 mile trips - one of those pulling an 8' utility trailer!
One thing that most people forget when building a street machine is that no matter how quick or fast you go, there's ALWAYS someone who's quicker and/or faster - no exceptions! So, bottom line - don't build a race car for the street because you will not be happy with it for very long. You can build a nice, fairly quick street machine and take it to the track 5 to 8 times a year and have a really good time with it, then enjoy the drive home. And if you're bracket racing, the quickness of the car really doesn't make a lot of difference, since a well tuned, consistent car with a consistent driver will usually win, no matter what the time posted on the window.
O.K., I'll get off the soap box now. Build the car you REALLY want and have fun with it. :)
 
right behind the "P" word-Purpose is the "C" word that I use for compromise. It is ironic that I have a very similar build started to your car. I do have a bit more gear and convertor but it should work well together.

I am contemplating for the future an 8 3/4 rear so that I can change things if I need to. For now though it will just be 4.10's and I will deal with it. I like the idea of gear changes in a bit of time. Not an option with the 1/4 though.

Thanks for the thoughts, ROB

BTW-what did you average for MPG with that combo on your trip?
 
I think you'll be happier on the "C" side once your "P" side has been determined. :) I could always get 23 MPG with the 7.25" rear end and 2.76 gears that were in it then. But you have to remember that our CDN gallon is larger than your US gallon, so that will make quite a difference. I haven't had it out with the 8.75" rear end yet, with either the 3.23's or 3.91's, so I can't give you any MPG with this combo.
 
Thanks Jeeper, this is such a good thread! I have a mild 360 with 3.23s in my Dart Sport and also have the urge to do 'just a bit more' ! I get 16mpg at best or less if i kick it around, so i'm thinking Comp Cams XE262H is a little understated, do I ft a bigger cam, convertor etc.. I know how it feels, tempting isn't it?
 
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