Chrysler wants more money,or pulling out of Canada

[E55D21]

Wow!!!! Interesting thread... I might as well toss in my 2 cents worth..

Chrysler was gone the moment Cerberus jumped in.. That's what they do, buy companies and break them up into pieces, sell off the "good" pieces and dump the junk. Strictly to make a profit. The American way...
Giving them money is only going into the pockets of the Cerberus management and owners. They can try to squeeze the Canadian government, if they get the money good for them. It's all fair and legal in the "game" of corporate survival. It's a game of "chicken" to see who blinks first...
Personally I'm all for the government loaning them money if they can't get it on the open market. Again it's a loan not a gift. A loan is subject to them being able to pay it back.. If they can't demonstrate the ablity to pay back the loan then they don't get it.. (unlike the mortgage issue as that's another seperate topic). If the company can't pay back the loan they go in to bankrupcy. Markets have to run their course otherwise we're into socialism.
We all need to look into the mirror as the mess we're all in was brought on by "all of us".. We elect the people that make policy decisions, be it our national or local government or UAW officer.. Greed, corruption and more greed has gotten us to where we're at today. Voice you opinion call or write your local government or UAW representative as they all are afraid to loose their job... Remember the squeaky wheel always gets the grease. It's up to us "little guys" to flush the crap out of the system.
Every bubble has to burst before a new one can begin to form.. It's all part of the natural cyclical moves in a market driven economy.
We'll all survive, beaten battered or bruised, but we will survive and at least be a little more knowledgeable and learn from the past so we can improve the future....
Ok, enough is enough.. I'm headed out to the garage to tune the carb on the Duster...

 

[1968FormulaS340]

The unions didn't destroy the American car companies.

Their death is a result of the overall economy.

Will I care? Yes and no...

Yes because it will a further shock to the overall economy.

No because their cars are junk when compared to an equal foreign model.

Sure Union wages didn't help but worker compensation at Toyota levels wouldn't have saved them either.

They have been building unreliable cars and using a bad product mix for years. Its time for them to go...


(I know it can be argued that lower employee compensation would have freed resources to build/design a better produce. I would like to agree but seeing the failings of the Big3 over the last 30 years, I just can't.)

 

[2shelbys]

Amen brother!

2shelby's,what makes you think I have no education? I have a steam engineers ticket,payloader training,forklift training,a process operators ticket,a grade 12 education,a first aid ticket,confined space training,scott air pack training,fire supression tickets..etc etc .I bet I have over 30 tickets. And yes Im union. With benefits included I probably make $45 -50/hr and I work damn hard for my money due to that fact that:

1) Labour cuts/layoffs have decreased the workforce by 75%.There is still the same amount of work to do though. And for some bizzare reason,there are about 50% more staff...

2) Company I work for runs all thier machinery to failure. No such thing as fixing stuff until they absoluely have to. Makes my job damn tough to do!

3) I have so called "educated" ASSHOLES telling me how to do my job that never have pushed more than paper. Because they have a pinky ring they think they know everything,but come to me for advise when something goes wrong . An education in a class room is no substitute for real world experience!

I'll bet you never have had a union job. The truth of it is,we sustain injuries,get sick and are exposed to hazards far more frequently than any office worker. Try shoveling pure arsenic with a shovel while dressed in paper coveralls,helmet and 1/2 face respirator! Or tapping slag from a fiery 1200 degree celcius furnace. Or working in a cell house filled with toxic sulfuric acid vapours. And I'm sure that auto workers can tell you thier own horror stories...

And unions have not outlived thier usfullness. Is worker rights abuse non existent now? Can the average joe afford to go to court when his rights have been violated? How far do you really trust your government to protect your worker rights? How many employers would really put thier workers before profits? We as union workers will NEVER GIVE UP AND BOW DOWN!

2 shelby's Im guessing you have never held a union position...and Im willing to bet the union labour costs have been distorted.

Where did I say that auto workers are uneducated? I said that laborers do not deserve the same compensation as people who spend 8 or more years in school and tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars on their education. Yes. I did have a union job. I was an electronics technician and was forced (how is that even legal?) to join the union. In my two years as a union worker I saw that if you were a worthless turd that spend most of the day wondering around running your mouth or sitting in the bathroom smoking the union prevented you getting the pink slip you so richly deserved but if you did your job all they did for you was take your money. When Clinton got elected and cut defense spending the company found themselves with too many people for the workload so they decided to try and manufacture ways to fire people instead of laying them off, which raises the cost of unemployment insurance. First, they decided to go back through the previous two years and look for lateness. I figured I was safe because I only had one day and it was previously OK'd with my supervisor. Then they called me into the office. They handed me a write-up for that one day. I looked at my supervisor and without me saying a word he said "yes, I know that was pre-approved for a doctor's appointment". I looked at our shop steward and asked "is the union really OK with this? He said "yes, sorry". I told him where he could shove his union and where they could shove their job. The non-union job I went to was a similar position with better pay and far better benefits. Yes. I had a union job. Yes, the union sucked, but no, that is not why I have a problem with the UAW. The numbers do not lie. UAW labor costs are killing the industry, period. Anyone who denies that is simply un-informed or is a union guy who ignores the truth.

 

[2shelbys]

The unions didn't destroy the American car companies.

Their death is a result of the overall economy.

Will I care? Yes and no...

Yes because it will a further shock to the overall economy.

No because their cars are junk when compared to an equal foreign model.

Sure Union wages didn't help but worker compensation at Toyota levels wouldn't have saved them either.

They have been building unreliable cars and using a bad product mix for years. Its time for them to go...


(I know it can be argued that lower employee compensation would have freed resources to build/design a better produce. I would like to agree but seeing the failings of the Big3 over the last 30 years, I just can't.)

Sorry, I can't agree with you there. UAW labor cost is undeniably the main reason they can not compete. It isn't quality. There is more equality there than there has ever been. Hell, in 2006 Toyota set a record for being the first manufacturer in history to recall more cars than they sold. Toyota, Honda, and Nissan have all been plagued with ever-increasing quality issues. You simply can not compete when it costs you over 50% more to produce the same product. Simple math. Yes, there are other issues, but solve all of them and you still cannot compete when your labor cost is unsupportable.

 

[2shelbys]

I'm tired of people calling autoworkers, overpaid, uneducated losers.

Who said that?

I think many people would love to get a job paying good wages like I was making. Maybe that's why so many are anti-union. Is it envy?

Not with me. My non-union job was the same position with the same responsibilities and both the pay and benefits were better.

In a way I hope the BIG 3 all go bankrupt so people get their wish. Then I can see all of them with me in the unemployment line.

Chapter 11 Bankruptcy does not mean shutting down. It means re-organizing so profitability can return.

I'll pull up in my Dodge or Plymouth. I won't buy another car because all that will be left is ricers. I refuse to buy one of those.

Buy used American or German cars. That BMW I picked up for a song is awesome. It is my first non-Mopar ever and it won't be the last but I don't see myself ever owning Jap crap.

 

[1968FormulaS340]

Where did I say that auto workers are uneducated? I said that laborers do not deserve the same compensation as people who spend 8 or more years in school and tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars on their education. Yes. I did have a union job. I was an electronics technician and was forced (how is that even legal?) to join the union. In my two years as a union worker I saw that if you were a worthless turd that spend most of the day wondering around running your mouth or sitting in the bathroom smoking the union prevented you getting the pink slip you so richly deserved but if you did your job all they did for you was take your money. When Clinton got elected and cut defense spending the company found themselves with too many people for the workload so they decided to try and manufacture ways to fire people instead of laying them off, which raises the cost of unemployment insurance. First, they decided to go back through the previous two years and look for lateness. I figured I was safe because I only had one day and it was previously OK'd with my supervisor. Then they called me into the office. They handed me a write-up for that one day. I looked at my supervisor and without me saying a word he said "yes, I know that was pre-approved for a doctor's appointment". I looked at our shop steward and asked "is the union really OK with this? He said "yes, sorry". I told him where he could shove his union and where they could shove their job. The non-union job I went to was a similar position with better pay and far better benefits. Yes. I had a union job. Yes, the union sucked, but no, that is not why I have a problem with the UAW. The numbers do not lie. UAW labor costs are killing the industry, period. Anyone whoi denies that is simply un-informed or is a union guy who ignores the truth.

If your story at the end is true... You had the right to sue your union for "Failure to Represent"....

I have been union most of my working life... A shop Stuart for about 15 years and served 1 term as 2nd. VP of AWPPW Local 1.

I will say this... The original idea of a "Union" died a very long time ago.

Once upon a time Union Labor = Quality over the under skilled non Union worker.

Now all it means is that you can be a lazy *** that is hard to fire. The pride is gone.

 

[1968FormulaS340]

This was my 88 BMW M3. Granted this was a $35,000 car in 88 but....

89hp/ltr
Solid 33 mpg on the highway
150-mph top speed
Rated as one of the top 50 cars ever made.

Yes you are looking at 4, 46-mm throttle bodies (in sets of 2) on a 4 banger. Normally aspirated.

That is not a body kit. 100% pure stock exterior. 100% pure stock interior. Red strut tower brace, 8-mm plug wires and adjustable camber plates added under the hood.

20 years later the Big3 still can't equal it. That's one of the problems.

 

[Woodys_Cuda]

Sorry, I can't agree with you there. UAW labor cost is undeniably the main reason they can not compete. It isn't quality. There is more equality there than there has ever been. Hell, in 2006 Toyota set a record for being the first manufacturer in history to recall more cars than they sold. Toyota, Honda, and Nissan have all been plagued with ever-increasing quality issues. You simply can not compete when it costs you over 50% more to produce the same product. Simple math. Yes, there are other issues, but solve all of them and you still cannot compete when your labor cost is unsupportable.

Canada is competitive with Toyota, in fact, it's cheaper, see below.

I was not referring to you about the autoworker bashing, bro. Its posted everywhere somebody can comment a blog, or article.

As for Chapter 11. Nobody will want to buy vehicles if they are worried about warranty coverage.
***************************************************
Caw Deal Beats Foreign Automakers In Us

General Motors Corp., trying to win government loans globally to survive, says a Canadian Auto Workers union agreement this week cuts hourly costs in that country below those of foreign automakers in the U.S.

At current exchange rates, the new CAW labor rate beats foreign automakers in the U.S. such as Toyota Motor Corp., GM Chief Financial Officer Ray Young said in an interview. Toyota's hourly U.S. labor rate is about $48 (C$61.05), Toyota spokesman Mike Goss said. Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC this week said the CAW cuts aren't deep enough for them.

"I do not know" Ford and Chrysler's costs, Young said. "Our analysis shows that the CAW contract with GM of Canada gets us to a competitive active labor costs per hour. At current exchange rates, we're actually lower."

Canadian Industry Minister Tony Clement made concessions by the union a condition for government help for automakers, which he said may total as much as C$7 billion for GM alone. GM isn't saying how much it wants, Young said. The automaker, surviving on $13.4 billion in U.S. loans, said in a Feb. 17 report to the U.S. Treasury that it's seeking $6 billion in funding outside the U.S.

Ford, which is not asking for U.S. aid, said today its factories in Canada wouldn't be competitive under the terms of the labor accord between GM and the CAW.

"The GM-CAW agreement will not deliver sufficient labor- cost savings compared to auto-manufacturing operations in the United States," Ford's manufacturing chief, Joe Hinrichs, said today in a statement.

'Very Possible'

Ford's assessment of the GM agreement in Canada echoes comments by Chrysler, which said it will need to negotiate deeper savings with the CAW as it works to shave expenses to survive. Canadian union members approved the GM contract.

"It's very possible they have a different set of demographics, a different set of costs, so it's very possible our agreement doesn't work for them," Young said. "Based on our analysis of our agreement, our workforces, and our understanding of the transplants in the U.S., it's competitive."

GM also plans to get further savings with the use of so- called supplemental workforce equivalent, or SWE workers, who are paid 70 percent of the current CAW factory hourly rate and have almost no benefits, Young said. The CAW agreed to the unlimited substitution of SWE workers for retiring regular CAW workers in a 2008 contract, he said.

The automaker also persuaded the CAW to end a regular cost- of-living adjustment to the pension for its workers which had been in place since 1987, Young said.

Canadian Concessions

The CAW this week ratified the agreement with GM that also freezes wages and pensions for about 10,000 members until 2012 and requires workers and retirees to pay a monthly health-care fee in an effort to reduce costs.

Workers also will forgo 40 hours a year in paid time off and an annual C$1,700 bonus will be diverted to offset the cost of health care, according to a statement from the union.

The union also agreed to lower by one-third expenses on programs such as childcare facilities and training, the union said. Workers and pensioners under 65 will pay a C$30 monthly co- pay premium for health and non-wage benefits, and those over 65 will incur C$15 a month.

Canadian Auto Workers President Ken Lewenza said he expects Ford and Chrysler to accept the terms in the GM agreement once "we get in a room and apply it to their needs."

"The pattern is going to have to be agreed upon," Lewenza said today in an interview. "We're not going to put ourselves into a position where one of the Detroit Three has an advantage over the other. Never, never, never."

Ford Seeking Savings

Hinrichs said Ford will continue to work with the CAW "to find additional cost savings." Ford manufactures its Flex and Edge crossover utility vehicles in Oakville, Ontario. Ford's Canadian operations contributed 5.3 percent of revenue in 2008 and represented about 12 percent of the automaker's assets, according to Bloomberg data.

Chrysler, controlled by Cerberus Capital Management LP, asked the Canadian government for $2.3 billion.

The company wants Ontario-based employees represented by the CAW to provide greater givebacks than those in a recent union agreement with GM, Chrysler Vice Chairman Tom LaSorda told Canada's House of Commons automotive subcommittee in Ottawa March 11.

Ford employees in the U.S. represented by the United Auto Workers union this week ratified changes to their contract that the automaker said will save it $500 million annually.

GM may save twice that amount through concessions under a tentative accord with the UAW announced Feb. 17, people familiar with the agreement said March 11. Young would not comment on the estimate. Chrysler also has a tentative UAW agreement, the union said last month, without giving details.

 

[Woodys_Cuda]

This was my 88 BMW M3. Granted this was a $35,000 car in 88 but....

89hp/ltr
Solid 33 mpg on the highway
150-mph top speed
Rated as one of the top 50 cars ever made.

Yes you are looking at 4, 46-mm throttle bodies (in sets of 2) on a 4 banger. Normally aspirated.

That is not a body kit. 100% pure stock exterior. 100% pure stock interior. Red strut tower brace, 8-mm plug wires and adjustable camber plates added under the hood.

20 years later the Big3 still can't equal it. That's one of the problems.

Nice car! I like.

 

[Woodys_Cuda]

Wow!!!! Interesting thread... I might as well toss in my 2 cents worth..

Chrysler was gone the moment Cerberus jumped in.. That's what they do, buy companies and break them up into pieces, sell off the "good" pieces and dump the junk. Strictly to make a profit. The American way...
Giving them money is only going into the pockets of the Cerberus management and owners. They can try to squeeze the Canadian government, if they get the money good for them. It's all fair and legal in the "game" of corporate survival. It's a game of "chicken" to see who blinks first...
Personally I'm all for the government loaning them money if they can't get it on the open market. Again it's a loan not a gift. A loan is subject to them being able to pay it back.. If they can't demonstrate the ablity to pay back the loan then they don't get it.. (unlike the mortgage issue as that's another seperate topic). If the company can't pay back the loan they go in to bankrupcy. Markets have to run their course otherwise we're into socialism.
We all need to look into the mirror as the mess we're all in was brought on by "all of us".. We elect the people that make policy decisions, be it our national or local government or UAW officer.. Greed, corruption and more greed has gotten us to where we're at today. Voice you opinion call or write your local government or UAW representative as they all are afraid to loose their job... Remember the squeaky wheel always gets the grease. It's up to us "little guys" to flush the crap out of the system.
Every bubble has to burst before a new one can begin to form.. It's all part of the natural cyclical moves in a market driven economy.
We'll all survive, beaten battered or bruised, but we will survive and at least be a little more knowledgeable and learn from the past so we can improve the future....
Ok, enough is enough.. I'm headed out to the garage to tune the carb on the Duster...

Agree, Cerberus has no intention of holding onto Chrysler. They hate losing money. They won't invest anymore money in Chrysler either.

I hope we can do something to stem the corruption in the banking system, governments, and Wall street too.


The biggest impact is felt at the bottom of the totem pole, us!

 

[2shelbys]

This was my 88 BMW M3. Granted this was a $35,000 car in 88 but....

89hp/ltr
Solid 33 mpg on the highway
150-mph top speed
Rated as one of the top 50 cars ever made.

Yes you are looking at 4, 46-mm throttle bodies (in sets of 2) on a 4 banger. Normally aspirated.

That is not a body kit. 100% pure stock exterior. 100% pure stock interior. Red strut tower brace, 8-mm plug wires and adjustable camber plates added under the hood.

20 years later the Big3 still can't equal it. That's one of the problems.

Here's my 1990 735i:

 

[2shelbys]

If your story at the end is true... You had the right to sue your union for "Failure to Represent"....

I have been union most of my working life... A shop Stuart for about 15 years and served 1 term as 2nd. VP of AWPPW Local 1.

I will say this... The original idea of a "Union" died a very long time ago.

Once upon a time Union Labor = Quality over the under skilled non Union worker.

Now all it means is that you can be a lazy *** that is hard to fire. The pride is gone.

Yes, it is true, and they claimed that the freedom to take such actions were part of the contract. You are correct about union no longer meaning what it used to.

 

[2shelbys]

Canada is competitive with Toyota, in fact, it's cheaper, see below.

I was not referring to you about the autoworker bashing, bro. Its posted everywhere somebody can comment a blog, or article.

As for Chapter 11. Nobody will want to buy vehicles if they are worried about warranty coverage.
***************************************************
Caw Deal Beats Foreign Automakers In Us

Good info. Looks like the big three should move all their manufacturing to Canada.

No problem. I should have known you were not directing that specifically at me.

 

[pettybludart]

Thanks for the info. Woody,I didn,t post this to be bashed either!Being a C.A.W member,we here in Ontario all rely on the Auto industry wether it be any of the Big 3.Suppliers hurt when we,re down,it effects everyone around my area(millions of family,s).Also I,ve never in my life had a job where you never got holidays,benifits or kickbacks.Maybe it,s just me ,but if you work and don,t get any of these benifits..look elsewhere for employment!I,m a lazy *** auto worker and this is tiring me out!

 

[1969GTS]

The good news is that even if the big three all go under we will always need cars. In Canada foreign car manufactures are only allowed to export a limited number of vehicles to Canada unless they manufacture them in Canada. I don’t see the governments policy changing on that. Those plants will be bought up, re tooled and be back in production with in a year or two. There is always a way to protect home markets and jobs. Rolls Royce does not export their top end cars to the USA because they refuse to crash a hand built million dollar vehicle into a wall to satisfy US safety standards. Where there is a willing government there is a way to protect our industry and jobs. Lobby your MP’s