Clutch Noise - please advise

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Old Country

Old Country

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Joined
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Location
Vancouver, WA
Specs -
72 Duster, 408 stroker, dyno'd 538 hp/564 tq (yep pretty hot), 8 3/4 rear w/3:23s, M/T ET streets (275/50R-50)..... pulls real well due to the tq. My old drag racer butt says high/mid 11 sec car (ran a 10 sec Barracuda for a spell). Mainly built (3 yr build) for street use, but not a daily driver.

Rig has about 700 miles on it thus far, no racing, just 400 miles of clutch break-in and around 300 miles of freeway and 2 or 3 hard street romps to shake things out (no racing). Have a std freshen'd 4-spd, re-surfaced light-weight Mopar flywheel, Center-Force dual friction, Federal Mogul T/O Bearing (#614036-BCA... the good one!), Pilot Bearing has about 2000 miles on it (didn't change it). So there's what we're talking about.

What's happening -
While letting the clutch out something in there growls like the T/O Bearing is chattering, but clutch engagment is smooth. At times it doesn't want 1st gear (stopped), sometimes getting momentary (minor) teeth grind. I checked everything out yesterday and all looked just fine/perfect. Have approx 1" pedal play, T/O Bearing has approx .100" gap to PP fingers, T/O Bearing spins freely by finger, no rattles or rough spots, with pedal depressed the clutch departure gap is .042" and disc is easily turned/spun by finger, no weird noises, rubbing or binding present.

NOTE: With the clutch fully dis-engaged, I can press UP on the clutch disc and can see it will move up & down roughly .110" or so. I do not know if this is normal or excessive (not a whole lot of experience with 4 spds).

"Did I hose myself by not changing that Pilot Bearing/Bushing" (not a roller style).....? OR could this be a sign my Input Shaft Bearing is going away or gone or am I on the wrong track al together...?

Q: If it is the Pilot Bearing/Bushing, would it be better to switched to one of those large dia roller style Bearings? I see it must fit in the larger cavity area in front of the current Bearing... would it require any special tools to install or just gently tap it into place...? Will the Input Shaft worki with one of those?... or will the roller style work on all of them...?

Any comments, opinions would be very helpful. Drop'n the trani on this is a MEGA pain in the arse, and I'm not a young man anymore... can't just drop it on my chest and muscle it around, ha... It took everything I had just to get it in there (no trani jack)... and I'm only 53...THIS SUCKS! :angry5:
 

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Yep, you answered youe own question. If you look in the back of the crank at the pilot bearing, you will see that it is gawld a little bit. Pull it out and put in a roller type and you should be good to go. You can pull the bearing retainer off and check for exessive wear in the bearing while your at it.
 
Have your checked the bell housing run-out? If not, I would as this would cause excessive pilot bushing wear and galling. With the bell housing attached, clamp a dial indicator to the crank and turn it over noting the readings. For example, say the total run-out is .028. Then get .014 off-set dowels to correct the run-out.

Hope this helps.
 
The polish on the end of the transmission shaft indicates that it is running out of round.
Also the picture of your pilot bushing appears to be cocked.
Grab the input shaft and see how much up and down play you have, I suspect that the input bearing is wore.
 
i always used to put a gob of moly grease on the input shaft which is designed for bushings and worked very well. it does look like you need to align your bell housing. get some offset dowels from you chrysler dealer p4120383. i now run the pilot bearing p5007051 for older motors. my 416 steel crank uses p4876056aa. these things are awesome and very strong. easy to replace and just a way better design
 
I want to thank everyone for their informative responses. This project has been quite a journey, lot's of ups & downs... but this is a real kick in the crotch, ha...

I had just returned home after FINALLY finishing the 400+ mile clutch break-in. I was going to take the wife for a spin, now that I could stretch the cars legs a tad. We get in, turn the key and it made this odd clunk sound and then the starter just spun, but the motor wasn't turning. After much trouble-shooting I discovered that the starter ring on the flywheel had come loose and it was spinning around the flywheel. UGH! I tore it all apart with a vengence, and it was a lot of work. From start to finish it took a couple months to finally get it all back together (I'm a busy dude). While apart, I did examine everything for any unforeseen abnormalities, but it all looked as it should, however I did replace the TO Bearing with an better one. I did have a hard time getting the trani back in, which was odd, as it went together just fine & easy during the original build many months earlier. I actually had to loosen the bellhousing bolts a little for it too finally 'fully seat' in the bellhousing. I've very little experience with 4-speeds and all the associated BS they entials.... which may now be more obvious than I'd considered. Lordy... maybe the bellhousing IS actually out of alignment... Well anyway, It's run just fine up until about 50 miles ago... That's when things started chattering 'a little' just once in a while... just a little and only in reverse. Now it does it EVERYTIME I'm start letting it out in 1st gear or reverse. I can actually feel groaning thru the pedal.... And it's only been together about 200 miles since getting it all together. :angry5:

Align the Belhousing? No idea how to do that at all, but I'll research it, figure it out. I don't know if that can be done with the engine in the car, and if I have to pull that engine, damn I'll just park the rig til winter. Summer is way too busy for all that drive-train drama AGAIN! Getting VERY tempted to go back to my drag race days and toss this 4-speed setup for a good 727! Well... maybe not yet, but whatever I do, "this time has GOT TO fix this flip'n problem"... besides - this is an original 340 H-code car by the way. Well enough whining!!

To do:
1) I will check (or hire a shop) and fix the bellhousing alginment.
2) I will have the trani openned up and gone thru. It's a used trani that 'supposedly' was freshned up with new bearings and synchros... roughly 2500 miles ago. At the very least I'll ensure the Input Bearing is replaced.
3) Replace the Pilot Bearing/Bushing... BUT I'm still on the fence: Should I install one of those newer Roller Bearing setups, or stay with the traditional Bearing/Bushing setup I currently have, as a couple have noted here. What's the vote guys..?

Either way, the car was finally ready to rock and now this... #-o
 

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just put a new centre force clutch in my 72 duster with a 833 tranny ,well today i just took it out for a ride and having to same trouble i didnt change the piolt bushing could this be the trouble
 
If you Google "bellhousing alignment" you'll find LOTS of info, and videos, and it matters not whether it's Mopar, GM, or Studebaker.

Basically, you strap a dial indicator to the flywheel and..................

1 indicate on the inner diameter of the bell hole. This gives you radial runout

2 indicate on the transmission mounting face of the bell. This gives you "square" from the bell to the crank centerline.

You can get offset block dowels, which you twist to change the radial location of the bell. If it's off square as in "2", you'll either have to check the bell for parallel between the block face and transmission face, and have it milled to correct, or figure a way to shim between the block and bell

Years ago, some friends and I were involved in several Jeep/ Landruiser / Bronco engine swaps, I think there were 5 or 6 in all, including the 340 in my Landcruiser. ALL of the Lakewood bells were off some. I've forgotten what mine was off, I elected to ignore it, as it was not that much.

This was in the early 70's (LOL) when transmissions could be had cheap. Back then, I've bought A-833's for as little as 50 bucks!!!!

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...1ZGNCQ&usg=AFQjCNHZx_iiO5XjGbkpJX8yCZWAA1mQwg

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Woh-fS3DJA"]Bellhousing Alignment With Offset Dowels - YouTube[/ame]
 
it hard to believe that the bell housing has to be alined ,it did nt make any nosie till i changed the clutch ,i did not even take the bellhousing off so how did it change???????????????????????????????
 
I just went through something similar. Whenever I pushed in the clutch, whether it was in gear or just sitting still, it would make a grinding/chattering noise. The pilot bushing is your culprit 100% - they tend to get very microscopic cracks (like mine did) and when that happens, it just spins and spins.

I just installed a new pilot roller bearing, this one:

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=447751

(Rock Auto search application: 1998 Dakota, 5.2L Manual Transmission, Clutch Pilot Bearing)

You just take a rubber mallet/hammer and tab it into the back of your crank, nothing more. Re-install your transmission and you're set. You should never have clatter or grinding again!
 
i hope so ,i took the pan off today and found so oil in there i think it gear lube ,so i am woundering if the shaft is moveing up and down causing the seal to leak in the tranny ,i did put a newseal in at the time the clutch went in odered a new bearing ,and a nother seal hope this is the trouble . well it turned out the seal was put in backwards and that was where my oil oil was coming from ,took it apart the other night put the seal min the rite way now she,s mint
 
Polish the input shaft with fine crokus cloth or 600 grit paper before you put it in, or it's going to cause premature failure of your new bushing.

What you are seeing is normal wear and tear on replacable parts, so don't let people tell you "the sky is falling"
Centering of the bellhousing is a chk for perfection but hardly ever actually the cause of clutch issues. (Especially if it worked fine for years before that)
The discoloration of the input shaft tip is a normal side effect of high friction from the failure of the bushing. (That bushing failure is not enough to cause a problem with your input shaft bearing either)
The new bushings come with a light grease to lube it with.
Just polish up the input shaft and replace the bushing, or replace it with a needle bearing (which I way prefer) and you will be just fine.

IF you want to chk the input shaft bearing while it's out just pull the collar that the throwout bearing rides on (called bearing retainer) rinse the bearing of the oil in it and give it a visual for pits or scars where the balls roll.
That's about all you can do with it unless you replace it weather or not it needs it.
(Remember that if you do this, you just contaminated the oil and it should be changed)

Do not use regular grease on the pilot as it will harden up and interfere with the bronze to the point the input shaft will keep trying to spin from the drag and make it feel like your clutch is not disengaging.
If you use a needle bearing and it does not come with grease in it then pack it well with white lithium grease.
If it comes already packed with grease, then just tap it in place.

One last thing is do not grease or otherwise lube the input shaft splines.
Just brush them clean with a wire brush.
Some say to grease it, but it can throw the grease out on your new clutch and/or collect clutch dust in the grease and keep the disc from free floating when disengaged.
 
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