Degenerative Disc Disease

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Thanks for that info.

I think the difference here is that the laser spine Institute that I am dealing with as many procedures that does not even involve a laser. He told me that lasers will not cut through bone and anybody that tells you they will is somebody that is worth staying away from.

In Their case laser is used for soft tissue removal and the like and any other procedures as infusions or going into clean out the area where stenosis has taken hold as done in the traditional manner. Only difference is that it is done through a much smaller incision or whole if you want to call it that.
 
1970-dart said:
Thanks for that info.

I think the difference here is that the laser spine Institute that I am dealing with as many procedures that does not even involve a laser. He told me that lasers will not cut through bone and anybody that tells you they will is somebody that is worth staying away from.

In Their case laser is used for soft tissue removal and the like and any other procedures as infusions or going into clean out the area where stenosis has taken hold as done in the traditional manner. Only difference is that it is done through a much smaller incision or whole if you want to call it that.
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My doc did tell me that he has several patients that were treated by the local place with mixed results, which is what he was basing his info on. He told me of one of his patients that has a back problem that is pretty much identical to mine and the "fix" they did on her offered no relief. But in certain cases it worked wonders so.....just like any surgery it is a crap shoot. Had carpal tunnel surgery on both wrists. Damn near every one I have talked to about it has had success. For me not so much, I am cursed with thick pads of skin in the palm/wrist area. Between this and the scar tissues it is almost like I never had the surgery done. Doc did say he can go in and remove the scar tissue/excess skin but until the pain gets extremely bad again I will pass.
 
I am still very undecided on which direction I will go but I do need to do something as I can't be on my feet for any more than 10 minutes at a time before the pain is unbearable and I can't gaining weight does not help and actually hurts.

So far they have made no bogus claims or outrageous promises. They are confident that they can relieve my symptoms and with their method of small incision and a less invasive surgery typically have half the recovery time than a normal open back surgery. Only problem is that they are out of network so between my out of network deductible out of network out-of-pocket expenses and the cost above what insurance will pay I am up to $4000 out-of-pocket expenses. But 3000 of that is deductible and out-of-pocket expenses for out of network services. And I would have to travel 1300 miles away from home to Florida To have it done.

Top of everything else The last MRI showed separation/crack that will require a fusion or stabilization of the spine
 
I also recently had carpel tunnel on my left hand and after three months it's just starting to show signs of improvement. I'm glad that is starting to improve but the palm of my hand is still so sore I'm hoping that goes away.
 
Had L4-L5-S1 fusions in 2011 due to breaking two vertebrae on the job, it cost my medical $300,000.00 (dollars US), I'm now worse off than I was then. The Docs didn't tell me that I also had Degenerative Disc Disorder until one of my legs ended up paralyzed, they apologized and said the L3-L4 damage was exacerbated by the realignment in the fusion area (I gained an inch in height that I had lost after breaking the L4 & L5) and that to repair this I now needed more fusions higher up. They also damaged the L5-S1 (sciatic) nerve root with scar tissue (I feel your pain Grassy). I spent three months in bed and had to learn to walk again (not very well or reliably) and now they want to do it all over again! There is a very helpful website called spineuniverse.com check them out. I recommend no surgery until you absolutely can't stand the pain anymore. I know $4,000 bucks is a lotta kaching, but it might be your best option. Check out the aforementioned web site, they did a survey a couple of years ago and 70% reported being just as bad or even worse (myself included), those are scary numbers. Places like Laser Spine Institute should be significantly better. Thoughts and prayers for you my friend!
 
There may be good laser spine surgery places but I wasn't impressed with Laser Spine Institute when I went to their seminar. "Oh, yes we can fix you and make you as good as new." Upon doing some research on them and finding out that they wasn't even associated to a hospital and your recovery is done in a motel room, it sent up the red flags. I had taken two highly knowledgeable people that are trained in the field with me to help me make sure I was asking the right questions and understanding everything.

I chose to find the best specialist in the state and found out that LSI had missed the boat entirely. Though a series of tests including a myelogram, I found out what the problem was and how to deal with it. I had absolutely no spine damage and all the pain was being caused by scar tissue pressing on things. With some life style changes I have only taken maybe 10 pain pills in the last two years and that has been when I have over done things. I was lucky that the red flags went off and saved myself a surgery that wasn't needed.

My advise (for what it is worth) is to find the specialist that does the sports injuries in your state and check him out. My doctor ended up being the hands on instructor for Oklahoma University students at his practice even though he was in Tulsa and the university is in Norman (about 85 miles away).
 
spondylosis/Bulging/Herniation disc/spinal stenosis/foraminal narrowing and facet disease are the things I have been diagonosed with. At a quick glance of the descriptions of theese many of them seem to be the Same or very much alike.

I have little to no actual back pain and my biggest problem/complain is the burning numbing throbbing from my *** to my ankle and I understand that's from the l5 s1 issues. I know it is a calculated risk or cap shoot if you will and I hear many horror stories and as many success stories. The people that had success say get it done ASAP and they ones that did not say wait as long as possible

I know from my knee ( total knee replacement less than a year ago) that everybody is different. And do some of us enough is enough when we can't walk anymore ( like with my knee) and for others is is less. I know I can't stand for more than 10 minutes and I can't walk to the mailbox or across the parking lot and I have to now out on many things my family does because I just can't do it. And that sucks sap on vacation whn u have to lag or completely stay behind on many things as your family goes on wot out you.

I am meeting with my local spine doctor to sit down and talk over the events and my latest MRI. He does not so surgeries and really can't so anymore for me. He is open and honest and is a great resource to just get a clearer idea and explanation of things and also recommendations. In short it is a great value for my 20$ co-pay lol
 
1970-dart said:
I also recently had carpel tunnel on my left hand and after three months it's just starting to show signs of improvement. I'm glad that is starting to improve but the palm of my hand is still so sore I'm hoping that goes away.
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My therapy was only supposed to go for 6 weeks....ended up closer to 6 moths. At that point progress seemed to be tapering off so the therapist & I pulled the plug. Surgeon told me to give it 18 months or so before you called yourself done with it. It did take about that long before the pain from the surgery was noticeably reduced. Therapist told me that if I get to the point that I can not touch my pinky to my thumb than I probably should go back to the surgeon. On either side closest I can get them is about 2" apart.....and even at that point my hand is very tight feeling...Been meaning to go back to see him just with my other health problem I am not really sure getting knocked out again is in my best interest.
 
67hfish said:
Had L4-L5-S1 fusions in 2011 due to breaking two vertebrae on the job, it cost my medical $300,000.00 (dollars US), I'm now worse off than I was then. The Docs didn't tell me that I also had Degenerative Disc Disorder until one of my legs ended up paralyzed, they apologized and said the L3-L4 damage was exacerbated by the realignment in the fusion area (I gained an inch in height that I had lost after breaking the L4 & L5) and that to repair this I now needed more fusions higher up. They also damaged the L5-S1 (sciatic) nerve root with scar tissue (I feel your pain Grassy). I spent three months in bed and had to learn to walk again (not very well or reliably) and now they want to do it all over again! There is a very helpful website called spineuniverse.com check them out. I recommend no surgery until you absolutely can't stand the pain anymore. I know $4,000 bucks is a lotta kaching, but it might be your best option. Check out the aforementioned web site, they did a survey a couple of years ago and 70% reported being just as bad or even worse (myself included), those are scary numbers. Places like Laser Spine Institute should be significantly better. Thoughts and prayers for you my friend!
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Ouch...former co-worker had a fusion done. His back was really bad. They went into fuse one area and decided against it for one reason or another and fused a different area. Rods pain got worse. We pretty much stopped talking about it. USPS started trying to rid itself of all the limited/light duty folks so Rod, like my wife and damn near everyone else I knew that had physical problems went on disability retirement. Fast forward a few years and apparently his pain level became to much....picked up his pain meds for the pharmacy went home and swallowed the entire bottle. More than 1 of our conversations at work was about suicide.

Pain....and the depression that comes along with it....hell of a way to live....
 
1970-dart said:
spondylosis/Bulging/Herniation disc/spinal stenosis/foraminal narrowing and facet disease are the things I have been diagonosed with. At a quick glance of the descriptions of theese many of them seem to be the Same or very much alike.

I have little to no actual back pain and my biggest problem/complain is the burning numbing throbbing from my *** to my ankle and I understand that's from the l5 s1 issues. I know it is a calculated risk or cap shoot if you will and I hear many horror stories and as many success stories. The people that had success say get it done ASAP and they ones that did not say wait as long as possible

I know from my knee ( total knee replacement less than a year ago) that everybody is different. And do some of us enough is enough when we can't walk anymore ( like with my knee) and for others is is less. I know I can't stand for more than 10 minutes and I can't walk to the mailbox or across the parking lot and I have to now out on many things my family does because I just can't do it. And that sucks sap on vacation whn u have to lag or completely stay behind on many things as your family goes on wot out you.

I am meeting with my local spine doctor to sit down and talk over the events and my latest MRI. He does not so surgeries and really can't so anymore for me. He is open and honest and is a great resource to just get a clearer idea and explanation of things and also recommendations. In short it is a great value for my 20$ co-pay lol
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I would want any back surgery done at an accredited hospital with the equipment to do what ever it takes if something went seriously wrong. Unless things have changed, they don't.
 
Ya I hear you there and that's why I asked. Dartmouth Hitchcock medical center is a well known hospital in New England and they are who I have been working with. Other than my local hometown spine doctor just for help and info.
 
I had a herniated disc at l5 s1 also. It had bothered me on and off for several years. Two or three times a year it would act up and be really painful for about a week and it would slowly go away. Last summer it was bothering me and I sneezed. It felt like the disc exploded. I had the nerve pain from my back to my toes like 1970dart. I could not get out of bed for more than 10 min or the pain would become unbearable. I ended up having a microdiscectomy and 1 year later I am pain free. 1970dart I live in NH. I saw Dr. Ahn from the Nh Neurospine Institute. They are located in Bedford NH. He is a great Dr., and is the chief neurosurgeon at one of the hospitals in Manchester. Most of my pain was gone when I woke up from surgery. Recovery was about 6 - 8 weeks.
 
1970-dart said:
I too am 45 I'm been dealing with this for a handful of years and surgery especially major surgery is always a last option. I have been through countless hours of PT and many other procedures and I don't have many if any options left

I would seriously question any doctor that flat out tells me I am too young for anything. I do surgeries on small children and I know 105-year-old lady that just had a hip replacement either way if I were you I would get second opinions.

Good luck and keep us informed
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They told me I am to young because I would probably have to have another surgery in 5 to 10 years. Plus they said its a 50/50 chance that it would work, not to mention it could make me worse. So I think I am gona take the option of them putting me on disability & sending me back to school to learn something that I don't have to be on my feet all the time. They say its all paid for. THEY SAY we will see Not to mention the insurance I have at work SUCKS It cost me $250 a doc visit. (not the family doc) I cant imagine what surgery would cost me.
 
67 Power Wagon said:
is the pain real bad at this time? It sounds as tho it may be moderate, I'd ask if Gabapentin will help instead of the pain meds.....Its what I'm on for foot nerve pain, and sounds as tho you might benefit from it as well....I'm on it, and I know Doug "AKA" Inkjunkie just got on it,....just something to ponder, I know it works for me, and seems as tho it is working for Doug, but he may need to talk more to his Doc on it.

As for the rest, its not a bad drug, you just have to try it and see if it helps in the wee bit and then go from there, YES, it has side effects, BUT I found that for me, they don't kick in at all....really once in a while as I'm on 300 MG pills, and I take one in the AM and one at night, as need a 3rd at times if its real bad to equal 900MG a day. I have an uncle that's on it that's taking 3600 MGs a day! And after seeing him, it seems to have done him well too! He's on it for Diabetic Neuropathy nerve pain in his legs and feet. I myself, don't have the Diabetic Neuropathy, I merely have nerve damage in my feet.....
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I have the same thing. Peripheral neuropathy with no known cause. Have had all the tests! Bad foot pain, 90% of the time. I have been on 450mg 3 times a day of Gabapentin for at least 5 years, but it isn't working very well anymore. Do you have any experience with any other drugs that may work? I had amitriptyline once, which did nothing for me. Aleve helps a little, but the best for my pain is oxycodone. Of course, I can't get a doctor to prescribe that stuff... Dr says it's bad stuff. I had the oxy for an operation, and while I was taking it the neuropathy was much better.
 
I was taking 3600 mg of gabapentin a day and it did Mir help one bit and I was not willing to go higher ( some people are over 5000 mg a day) so I stopped taking it.
 
I have decided to go through with a surgery, With chronic pain of 4-5 all the time and gets worse the more i do. I cant sit or more than 30 minutes or stand for more than 15 before the pain is 10 plus and My work requires me to do a boat load both. I am on the road 500-700 miles a week with tons of 15-20 stops in between where I am bending/reaching/twisting and turning. I am on the road 12 hours and 150-200 miles a day and it kills me. Not to mention I cant do anything with my family or friends and have to stay behind on almost everything

I have all the usual bulging disc/spinal stenosis/degenerative disc/arthritis/Sciatica and everything else that seems to be the same thing with a different name. I have been through countless hours of PT/chiropractic/spinal injections and strong nerve med and nothing has worked.

I have a few months of getting some prolonged health issues taken care of before I can have surgery. My doctor has taken me partially out of work by restricting my days to no more than 6 hours and no more then 60 miles. So if all goes well I will have surgery around the beginning of March.
 
You can get on a slippery slide..

One thing that I am finding that affects my pain is that I am losing weight... I am on a strict regiment of food..and I am not allowed to exercise (cannot anyway) , it is good for diabetics and my doctor is happy with it...insulin usage is down, blood pressure is down and I am losing 3.7 pounds a week...and some (not all) of my pain is lessening..

Good luck with the operation..take your laptop into the hospital with you..

Ian.
 
While I and not diabetic and all my blood levels are under the tolerances they are all rising with the weight gain. The big thing i have to do before surgery is lose about 60 pounds and( in theory) im hoping that might relieve enough pain that i decided to wait on surgery and lose some more to see if that helps. i also have a couple cracks in my spine and have to have some bone repair/replacement.

the main reason for modifying my work schedule is in hopes that i will be able to do more at the end of the day in regards to a little exercise vs not being able to walk at all
 
Check this out...

http://www.idealprotein.com/

It was the only diet I couldn't find negatives about.

Great Councillors, positive daily e-mails and a weigh in that gave me a lot of information.

Oh, and there a 4 stages that allows you to get off and maintain.

Good luck
Ian.
 
This thread has hit home big time for me. First of all, your pain and mobility issues demand and have demanded a proactive invasive approach for quite awhile now. At this juncture you're lucky you have not suffered irreversible paralysis. Your choices are over.
I had S1-L3 fused with instrumentation in late 2009. Turns out the culprits were genetic DDD, military and occupational. I was 55. Afterwards I felt like I had anew lease on life and
lived like it..........AND did a lot of damage to the massive amount of spinal slice 'n dice I'd undergone.
This past May the quality of my life plummeted. In June underwent a 7 hour
fandango and another 2 hour dance in July. They had to do a "revision" of the original surgery - read repairing lots of damage and then fusing and bolting L3-L2. It's been 2 weeks or so now since I had to take an oxycodone for pain except for one day (the day I bought the Dart). I'm holding my own with ibuprofen and Tylenol and am able to walk without a cane although I still carry one on my "weak" days just in case but my back still hurts, my right leg still gets very weak, my balance is still compromised and my ice pack is still my best friend. I'm now 61 just and my recovery is slow, gotta love getting older. My overall health was/is good but I have an extra stone or two I wish I wasn't carrying around. Weight is a ***** to lose as we age despite how healthy our diets/lifestyle are and the reality is its too late to be thinking about losing weight now.
Pardon my diatribe here but my points are these.
PROTECT YOUR BACK AT ALL COSTS THROUGHOUT YOUR LIFE. Do you hear me all you young bucks out there? We've all been invincible in our lives, we've also been issued only one spine.
DONT EVER LET ANY SAWBONES TOUCH YOUR SPINE IF THERE ARE ANY VIABLE OPTIONS.
Laser this, injection that, PT, accu whatever etc are bandaids nothing more.
IF PUSH COMES TO SHOVE....AND YOU ARE BEING SHOVED NOW, ITS BETTER TO TAKE THE KNIFE, SUFFER THROUGH RECOVERY AND REGAIN 70-90% OF YOUR OLD MOBILE CAPABLE SELF THAN DO NOTHING AND GET THE CHAIR.
Yes, you may still have to take some form of Rx pain meds or maybe not. Spinal surgery is at best a crap shoot plain and simple. You will be making hard choice permanent lifestyle changes after your surgery. If you don't you'll get the chair. For me, I will never restore another car. I'll never lift anything over 25-30lbs again and where I'm at in June of 2015 is where I'll be the rest of my life. It looks like I'll be about 75-80% of normal so far and I'm damned glad for that. This is reality for me.
Don't let them do anymore than what you've discussed. Keep in mind that once they get you open they may find other damage they must repair.......the "crap shoot" thing.
Understand that you will never be 100% again and that losing weight will be an even greater challenge after your surgery.
Med technology is far better now than it was even a couple years ago so be positive, be strong and fight like hell during your recovery.
While you are recovering find a public swimming pool that offers a gentle water aerobics/fitness class tailored for folks like us. Sign up for it and go 2-3 weekly. Believe me, it's one of the best things you can do for yourself other than another Mopar, 70 virgins and that winning lotto ticket.

I'll look forward to hearing from you after your surgery. You'll be walking and you'll be alive.

Look this bastard right in the eye and drag its nasty *** through the gates.......and leave it there. You're going to be just fine. No worries.

Tom
 
Gabapentin has been mentioned here, thanks to the suggestio of a few folks here, Grassy being one of them I am on it. I was wondering if it was helping so I stopped it. My back pain increased noticeably. Wife has several different types of arthritis in addition to fibromyalga. Thanks to a recent reaction to the infusion she was getting she no longer is on anything for it, at least nothing that is helping. Last rheumatologist visit her pain was at full throttle. Doc examined her and said the bulk of the pain was from the fibro. Put her on a low but slowly increasing dose of gabapentin. Told her that for fibro exercise is more important than meds. She flatout refuses to exercise but that is for another thread. Her pain level is slowly reducing, perhaps the gabapentin is helping some?
 
Twodko said:
This thread has hit home big time for me. First of all, your pain and mobility issues demand and have demanded a proactive invasive approach for quite awhile now. At this juncture you're lucky you have not suffered irreversible paralysis. Your choices are over.
I had S1-L3 fused with instrumentation in late 2009. Turns out the culprits were genetic DDD, military and occupational. I was 55. Afterwards I felt like I had anew lease on life and
lived like it..........AND did a lot of damage to the massive amount of spinal slice 'n dice I'd undergone.
After I lost my beloved wife to Fahr's Syndrome early last year my spinal problems got to the point where I too had no quality of life. By the grace of God I was able to take care of my sweet bride in our house until she was called home. It was my honor and privilege to be my wife's sole caregiver and I'm deeply grateful to have been able to do so.
This past May the quality of my life plummeted. When my gal died I lost the med insurance we had through her retirement plan. I could have continued making Cobra payments but who has that kind of money right? Turns out I was eligible for healthcare through the VA....40+ years after the fact. I asked them for help in May and in June underwent a 7 hour
fandango and another 2 hour dance in July. They had to do a "revision" of the original surgery - read repairing lots of damage and then fusing and bolting L3-L2. It's been 2 weeks or so now since I had to take an oxycodone for pain except for one day (the day I bought the Dart). I'm holding my own with ibuprofen and Tylenol and am able to walk without a cane although I still carry one on my "weak" days just in case but my back still hurts, my right leg still gets very weak, my balance is still compromised and my ice pack is still my best friend. I'm now 61 just and my recovery is slow, gotta love getting older. My overall health was/is good but I have an extra stone or two I wish I wasn't carrying around. Weight is a ***** to lose as we age despite how healthy our diets/lifestyle are and the reality is its too late to be thinking about losing weight now.
Pardon my diatribe here but my points are these.
PROTECT YOUR BACK AT ALL COSTS THROUGHOUT YOUR LIFE. Do you hear me all you young bucks out there? We've all been invincible in our lives, we've also been issued only one spine.
DONT EVER LET ANY SAWBONES TOUCH YOUR SPINE IF THERE ARE ANY VIABLE OPTIONS.
Laser this, injection that, PT, accu whatever etc are bandaids nothing more.
IF PUSH COMES TO SHOVE....AND YOU ARE BEING SHOVED NOW, ITS BETTER TO TAKE THE KNIFE, SUFFER THROUGH RECOVERY AND REGAIN 70-90% OF YOUR OLD MOBILE CAPABLE SELF THAN DO NOTHING AND GET THE CHAIR.
Yes, you may still have to take some form of Rx pain meds or maybe not. Spinal surgery is at best a crap shoot plain and simple. You will be making hard choice permanent lifestyle changes after your surgery. If you don't you'll get the chair. For me, I will never restore another car. I'll never lift anything over 25-30lbs again and where I'm at in June of 2015 is where I'll be the rest of my life. It looks like I'll be about 75-80% of normal and I'm damned glad for that. This is reality for me.
Don't let them do anymore than what you've discussed. Keep in mind that once they get you open they may find other damage they must repair.......the "crap shoot" thing.
Understand that you will never be 100% again and that losing weight will be an even greater challenge after your surgery.
This is tough and scary to hear......have all of your affairs in order.....again the "crap shoot" thang. The upside is med technology is far better now than it was even a couple years ago so be positive, be strong and fight like hell to recover.
While you are recovering find a public swimming pool that offers a gentle water aerobics/fitness class tailored for folks like us. Sign up for it and go 2-3 weekly. Believe me, it's one of the best things you can do for yourself other than another Mopar, 70 virgins and "that " lotto ticket.

I'll look forward to hearing you ***** and complain after your surgery. You'll be walking and you'll be alive.

Look this bastard right in the eye and drag its nasty *** through the gates.

Tom
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Sorry for your loss and all your pain

the regrets of not listening to older folks when we are younger and the bumps and bruises that come from it. Im not 60 but on the better part of my 40s and closing in on 50. I worked road construction and the ship/receive areas of furniture warehouses all my life so I have done my share of crap I should not have.

The pain of these problems stinks and I have been dealing with them for 8-10 years got b worse (or i finally gave in) very fast in the last 4-5 years. The back problems took a back seat to a serious knee injury that lead to a total knee replacement and 7 months off work.

Through work I have a short term (25 weeks) and long term ( kicks in after the 25 weeks and goes until i go back to work or draw social security) disability plan. This plan will cover difference in my pay between the regular and the reduced work schedule and will kick in full time if work cant accommodate the ( just turned paper work in yesterday) the work restrictions.

I am 30 pounds lighter now than i was in April this year and i have done nothing different other than some extra mobility from the knee replacement. I am now watching what i eat and doing portion control on that and hopefully that coupled with less work I can get some exercise in. My local gym has a Olympic size pool with many classes included in the membership.

thanks for the pointers and i hope you continue to have some quality of life

Don
 
inkjunkie said:
Gabapentin has been mentioned here, thanks to the suggestio of a few folks here, Grassy being one of them I am on it. I was wondering if it was helping so I stopped it. My back pain increased noticeably. Wife has several different types of arthritis in addition to fibromyalga. Thanks to a recent reaction to the infusion she was getting she no longer is on anything for it, at least nothing that is helping. Last rheumatologist visit her pain was at full throttle. Doc examined her and said the bulk of the pain was from the fibro. Put her on a low but slowly increasing dose of gabapentin. Told her that for fibro exercise is more important than meds. She flatout refuses to exercise but that is for another thread. Her pain level is slowly reducing, perhaps the gabapentin is helping some?
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over time I was weened on and off and changed up numerous times with with little to no improvement so it was not enough relief to warrant the continued use.
 
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