Don't pump gas on May 15th.

[Guitar Jones]

uhm.

1 ethanol still uses gasoline its only like 20% added to the gas.

I agree with what you say except for this. E85 is 85% ethanol.
What gets me is we are still using energy to produce alcohol. It takes heat, and how do we get the heat? Either by burning fossil fuels to make heat (gasoline, LP gas or Natural gas) or by electricity which is generated by? Right, heat. Either the burning of fossil fuels, coal, garbage or nuclear power.

Except for the nuclear power all are producing greenhouse gasses, the nuclear power is producing something entirely different and not without it's own set of problems, for 1000's of years to come.

So what's the answer? I certainly don't have one.

 

[ramcharger]

I agree with what you say except for this. E85 is 85% ethanol.
What gets me is we are still using energy to produce alcohol. It takes heat, and how do we get the heat it? Either by burning fossil fuels to make heat (gasoline, LP gas or Natural gas) or by electricity which is generated by? Right, heat. Either the burning of fossil fuels, coal, garbage or nuclear power.

Except for the nuclear power all are producing greenhouse gasses, the nuclear power is producing something entirely different and not without it's own set of problems, for 1000's of years to come.

So what's the answer? I certainly don't have one.

Hey Guitar!

I watched something about this on the Discovery channel. With corn you get a 120% return on the energy used to create ethanol, but an 800% return if sugar cane is used. Supposedly, the the chemistry involved is advancing to allow a greater percentage of return and allow stuff like grass clippings, and farm waste to be effeciently turned into ethanol.

Like you say, this is not a long term answer, but maybe we need to take smaller steps that may lead to the ultimate solution. Plus the 105 octane rating of E-85 gets me stoked! Even if I have to use 66% more fuel to achieve the same amount of power. Technically, the additional fuel should help cool the intake charge as well.

I like solar panels as a way to power a home, but I also know that this won't work in most climates. The panels that are now availible are much more efficient than even 5 or ten years ago, and I know that it can be done in the southwest. Just food for thought.

 

[2shelbys]

I saw some interesting stuff on E85 in popular Mechanics a couple of months ago. I don't know if what they say about it's price is true because it is not for sale around here but they said that just about everywhere it is more expensive than gas and you need to use more of it to do the same job as gas. Another really good point they raised is that if E85 were ever to go into widespread use the effect it would have on the price of corn (a staple ingredient of animal feed) would cause the price of all meat and dairy products (and anything else animal-based) to skyrocket. You just can not win.

With corn you get a 120% return on the energy used to create ethanol, but an 800% return if sugar cane is used.

I wish I had seen that and heard how the Discovery Channel explained that in light of the basic truth that energy is never created, it is only transferred from one form to another, and there is no such thing as even 100% transfer, much less more than 100%. If there was a method of energy creation that created more energy than the process actually used all of our energy problems would disappear. As far as I understand the science, it is impossible.

 

[70dart]

Interestingly enough the ethanol debate was on the 20/20 myths show last night. They were talking about all the politicians jumping on the ethanol band wagon but another person was on saying ethanol saving energy is myth as it takes as same amount of energy to produce ethanol as the amount of ethanol produced. considering all te tractors running to plant, fertilize and harvest and ship the corn. BUT ethanol cannot go through pipelines or it will degrade so there will be a lot more fuel transport trucks on the road to distribute it all over. They also commented on the amount of fertilizer required and the greenhouse gases that were involved in manufacturing the fretilizer then putting the fertilizer out into the environment. They reported as well that if all of the farmland in the U.S. produced only corn for ethanol it would only produce enought ethanol to meet 12% of the U.S demand for ethanol. So guess what, another government idea that won't work, big freakin' surprise there.

Memike minimum wage in canada is about 6.85 but I believe there may be a variance from province to province.

 

[unreformed66]

uhm.

1 ethanol still uses gasoline its only like 20% added to the gas.
True, if you're talking about the E85 stuff. I was talking about running our cars entirely on alcohol. That's what the greenies are after.
2 we got plenty of farmland. lots that is paid not to be farmed.
Actually we have very little farmland that's paid to not be farmed, mostly former tobacco land in my area. In case you didn't know, we're the largest exporter of food in the world. We feed half the world these days.
3 irrigate wyoming, utah, new mexico. if it paid to grow corn, it would be grown.
With what? Have you not seen the water problems that they're having in that part of the country? I saw an article the other day that said that in the next 20 years the entire Colorodo river basin was going to have problems meeting the water demands if population kept rising like it currently is.

4 alcohol can be made from lots of things, ever hear of vodka? made from taters.
Yes, alcohol can be made from damn near anything that will rot. But the quality and ease of manufacture varies greatly depending on the things used to make it, and there again, we have to EAT!!
5 gas would be a hell of a lot cheaper of we stopped puttin all the damn taxes on it.
True!! They say that the gas taxes are for highways, but I'm not sure I believe that.
6 I drive my 360 powered dart every day with my lead foot. I get crappy mileage and buy hi test gas that is .20 higher than the prices quoted in news reports so the car will run right. is the answer to buy a new car to get better than 15 mpg? no. why? because if I paid $7 a gallon, I would still pay less a month than I would if I bought a new honda because my gas guzzler is paid for. No car payment and no full coverage insurance.

True again, all 3 of my vehicles are paid for. My truck and Intrepid are high mile, faded paint junk, but they're MY junk. The Scamp isn't junk, but if I drive it every day here in Ohio it will be soon. Problem is that they won't last forever, and can you imagine having THREE major restoration projects?? lol.

 

[ramcharger]

I wish I had seen that and heard how the Discovery Channel explained that in light of the basic truth that energy is never created, it is only transferred from one form to another, and there is no such thing as even 100% transfer, much less more than 100%. If there was a method of energy creation that created more energy than the process actually used all of our energy problems would disappear. As far as I understand the science, it is impossible.

I never said that energy was "created". I said you get a "return". Big difference. The energy we get from bio-fuels is from photosynthesis which is the process by which plants, some bacteria, and some protistans use the energy from sunlight to produce sugar, which is then converted to alcohol. :idea1:

I saw some interesting stuff on E85 in popular Mechanics a couple of months ago. I don't know if what they say about it's price is true because it is not for sale around here but they said that just about everywhere it is more expensive than gas and you need to use more of it to do the same job as gas.

It is not more expensive than gas. You are correct, alcohol does not have as much energy per pound as gasoline, but you can compensate by increasing your compression ratio or using it in a "boosted application" due to it's 105 octane rating and increased cooling effect.

Another really good point they raised is that if E85 were ever to go into widespread use the effect it would have on the price of corn (a staple ingredient of animal feed) would cause the price of all meat and dairy products (and anything else animal-based) to skyrocket. You just can not win.

True it already has increased the price of feed here in Colorado, but there is plenty of room for increased production of corn in the US. I'd much rather give my money to a farmer than the middle east. We just need to ramp up production here in the states.

 

[speedyvision]

i know y`all have a need to feed your internal combustion addiction!
it is very important that people send a message to corporate powers and politicians and opec rulers too. a message that we the people stand united, aware and unwilling to take it anymore!
its time u make your hot rods run on something other than oil...or maybe use oil ONLY for your hot rods and not for anything else!
beyond that we need to begin to think smart and conserve energy ...until we put in place the available, over the counter technology to do away with these limitations!
i know you Mopar guys are a different breed, non conformists...i say that as a compliment. my Dad was a Mopar guy! ...Walter P. was THE pent-ultimate...(pentastar!) MOPAR GUY!
so i`m counting on you guys to make the difference!
and now its time to re-revolutionize the automotive industry along with the energy industry and our economy...and the whole WORLD along with it!
like Henry Ford did with his Model T production line!
i know i said a "ford" letter word! ...sorry!
watch for my next posting called; The Carbon Stirling! it will explain my thoughts on changing the things i described above...

 

[TheBestCar]

The oil we eat

 

[Longgone]

Did my part.....

 

[Dartnut]

Hey, Rob: it's 1.12 a liter here at my place..... still brutal, it's a big money grab, they are ratcheting the prices like crazy here. 2 months ago it was 83.9 a liter (americans, a liter is roughly a quart) what a bunch of b.s. glad i drive a slant six, It makes you think about building a 360 or bigger for a daily cruiser though. $$$$$ ?

 

[doug 371]

went to $1.22 per litre here today. thats our highest i ve seen

 

[speedyvision]

mine has a slant 6, but they aren`t great mileage engines...and they`re pretty heavy too. i was going to put a 440 in my 71 Dart. i didn`t, but it had more to do with selling the 440 donor car and losing my mechanic (i changed boyfriends! haha) but now i`m thinking of changing it to a smaller engine. one that i`m considering is the GM (pontiac) iron duke 4 cyl. ...well it was factory installed in Jeep`s so it kinda qualifies as Mopar friendly. it bolts to a chevy auto trans and everybody who had a jeep pulls them to put in a V8 so maybe theres some available cheap? i had a vega...well it was the pontiac version...Astre (i think...it was years ago) and i liked that car with the iron duke and 4 speed. maybe i can take a few hundred pounds off the Dart, do some mods on the duke and have decent driveability and mileage?
oh p.s. i didn`t buy any gas in the past 2 weeks! i will have to soon tho...

 

[whitey]

It's too bad some people just couldn't stay away because they feel it doesn't do anything. So I guess everyone should just sit back and let the oil companies charge what they want, and just keep paying it.

Take a stand, do SOMETHING in protest.

I was listening to Bill O'Reilly yesterday. THere has been no construction of refineries in YEARS! The Gov't won't approve of any, and the oil companies don't want to update the ones in existance now.