And had 3 Martini lunches
Doug's headers not fitting - frustration
- Thread starter Uncle Bob
- Start date
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Uncle Bob
Shiny paint causes stress.
What I tried yesterday ...
I loosened the nuts on the bottom studs between biscuit and k-frame to the point they were flush to the end of the stud, and loosened up the trans mount bolts.
First I tried lifting one side at a time. Lifting the driver's side gave me a little more room but not nearly enough, lifting the passenger side jammed the header into the coupler.
So I shoved as many shims in beneath the biscuit as I could given where I had left the nut under the biscuit. It took a 3/8" stack but no help.
Next I tried lifting the whole thing and trying to pry it to the passenger side. No.
Next I tried pry over from beneath the car and the transmission kept coming right back to where I started and didn't really move.
The mount studs are sitting at the bottom of the V on the k-frame, both sides. Raising the driver helped but because the passenger side is still at the bottom it didn't actually move it only lifted it.
The driver side biscuit is hanging about half off the k-frame pad, and as if more of it is off than is on. The PS biscuit pretty much squares up with it.
I get at best, a quarter turn of the coupler before it hits, and that's only because there's a wide and a narrow side to it. Don't forget, it's hitting both sides so a quarter turn actually means an eighth in two directions. It might as well not move at all.
Also, it looks to me that a dent would have to go half way through the pipe to get to clearance. I need to get a photo of that. It sure seems to need a lot more than moving the engine over an 1/8" per my C/L measurement yesterday.
I loosened the nuts on the bottom studs between biscuit and k-frame to the point they were flush to the end of the stud, and loosened up the trans mount bolts.
First I tried lifting one side at a time. Lifting the driver's side gave me a little more room but not nearly enough, lifting the passenger side jammed the header into the coupler.
So I shoved as many shims in beneath the biscuit as I could given where I had left the nut under the biscuit. It took a 3/8" stack but no help.
Next I tried lifting the whole thing and trying to pry it to the passenger side. No.
Next I tried pry over from beneath the car and the transmission kept coming right back to where I started and didn't really move.
The mount studs are sitting at the bottom of the V on the k-frame, both sides. Raising the driver helped but because the passenger side is still at the bottom it didn't actually move it only lifted it.
The driver side biscuit is hanging about half off the k-frame pad, and as if more of it is off than is on. The PS biscuit pretty much squares up with it.
I get at best, a quarter turn of the coupler before it hits, and that's only because there's a wide and a narrow side to it. Don't forget, it's hitting both sides so a quarter turn actually means an eighth in two directions. It might as well not move at all.
Also, it looks to me that a dent would have to go half way through the pipe to get to clearance. I need to get a photo of that. It sure seems to need a lot more than moving the engine over an 1/8" per my C/L measurement yesterday.
Uncle Bob
Shiny paint causes stress.
I worked with a guy who was a Pittsburgh steel worker when the industry collapsed. I was always amazed at the stories he would tell of what work meant there to some of them.
You need to catch a break.................... First all the starter issues now the headers.
I install many different headers from the same manufacture and also different brands. They are all a little different even the same brand and Part#. The only set I ever installed without any modifications were Hooker long style 1 5/8 tube with manual steering. All others need to have something changed for fitment. Also I never use rubber mounts with headers. One reason to have a perfect balanced rotating assembly.
Install the engine on the K-member with the mounts snug but movable on the bolts on the block. Tighten them after the surface of the mount is parallel with the surface of the k-member. This uneven fitment can be seen easier with a steel mount where rubber mount will just twist and flex into place when tightened. So when ever using rubber mounts let the engine down slow and make sure the engine mount surfaces are parallel with the K-member when the engine is level with the K-member to frame surfaces compared to the carb surface. Then tighten the mount to block bolts.
Dropping them in on the k-member and assuming they are properly place is everyone's biggest mistake.
Reminds me of the guys that did my vinyl on my house. They leveled the bottom row and worked their way to the top. What a cluster **** that was. I didn't think of telling them until they got to the top that the house wasn't level. 1 1/2 '' difference from side to side at the top in 66 feet. They should have seen it at the bottom of the first window they came to. I would have measured from the top down at the corners and struck a line..
Good luck with your headers Steve. If your using just rubber mounts use manifolds for clearance with engine movement.
Install the engine on the K-member with the mounts snug but movable on the bolts on the block. Tighten them after the surface of the mount is parallel with the surface of the k-member. This uneven fitment can be seen easier with a steel mount where rubber mount will just twist and flex into place when tightened. So when ever using rubber mounts let the engine down slow and make sure the engine mount surfaces are parallel with the K-member when the engine is level with the K-member to frame surfaces compared to the carb surface. Then tighten the mount to block bolts.
Dropping them in on the k-member and assuming they are properly place is everyone's biggest mistake.
Reminds me of the guys that did my vinyl on my house. They leveled the bottom row and worked their way to the top. What a cluster **** that was. I didn't think of telling them until they got to the top that the house wasn't level. 1 1/2 '' difference from side to side at the top in 66 feet. They should have seen it at the bottom of the first window they came to. I would have measured from the top down at the corners and struck a line..
Good luck with your headers Steve. If your using just rubber mounts use manifolds for clearance with engine movement.
Uncle Bob
Shiny paint causes stress.
I just try to relax and realize it's all part of hot rodding.You need to catch a break.................... First all the starter issues now the headers.
Super-Cuda
MOPAR .. Move Over, Plymouth Approaching Rapidly!
Great attitude!
I am following along and it definitely seems the engine is not aligned properly in the engine bay. I don't think its the headers so I wouldn't bend them up yet.
Here's something else to check
I was thinking that maybe the transmission mount is bad or the crossmember is dropped .
This could drop the end of the engine down and maybe cause interference with the header tubes and the steering box as well.
Might be worth disconnecting the mount , put a jack under the transmission tail shaft and raise it .
Then see if the is any more clearance.
This is an easy check to do.
Uncle Bob
Shiny paint causes stress.
Well the trans mount is a new old part I've had laying around forever so I think it's OK and the crossmember is stock but I will definitely keep that in mind.
Re-reading this morning I realized one thing I have failed to do is to loosen the block-to-bracket bolts. I've only been loosening the bottom stud between the mount and the k-frame. That will be the first thing I do the next time I'm at the car.
Based on the 1/8" measurement from yesterday I'm included to agree that the problem seems to be at the transmission end of things.
Super-Cuda
MOPAR .. Move Over, Plymouth Approaching Rapidly!
You know Bob, this could be a combination of all these adjustments needing to be done.
As I'm sure you know, they all add up, an 1/8th here, a 1/16th there etc ...
Uncle Bob
Shiny paint causes stress.
Agreed - stacking tolerances like I'm playing Jenga but in reverse.
Uncle Bob
Shiny paint causes stress.
I took my lunch break in the garage to loosen up the bracket bolts and take a few photos. After loosening the bolts I lifted it up and sat it down carefully and it went right back to the same spot. The one photo I wanted to show the coupler hitting didn't turn out for some reason. Cheap phone I guess.
It looks like there's something weird going on with this one, but if anything that should raise the back because if anything it's tipped to the front.
Sing out if you see anything questionable there.
It looks like there's something weird going on with this one, but if anything that should raise the back because if anything it's tipped to the front.
Sing out if you see anything questionable there.
What is holding the engine up off the mount? Is the trans mount installed in these pics?
Uncle Bob
Shiny paint causes stress.
The levitating motor mounts are courtesy of the cherry picker. Yes the trans mount is installed but is loosened up.
Uncle Bob
Shiny paint causes stress.
No. That's about how high it's raised in those photos based on my experiment with shims last night.
I found the photos I thought were lost - I was looking at the wrong end of the folder list.
I hope these show how wrong it is, leading to my pessimism about this being a "scoot it over an eighth" or "knock a dent in it and move on" situation either.
The coupler is right against the tube there.
Well.. on mine i had to actually cut a pipe and move it.... If you can dent it and clear the coupler that might just be the way. it won't look great BUT they did dyno tests and found denting them didn't do **** to hurt power.. weird it's that far off
Uncle Bob
Shiny paint causes stress.
I think I would need to put the tube in a hydraulic press to dent it as much as it seems to need. That's the mad part - it's not just barely touching, I would lose half a tube to get it to work.
I also eyeballed the k-frame bolts, since that was out. I have been assured that with the shouldered interface between the frame and the k-frame bolts, that it can't really go wrong if it's torqued, and I happen to know from experience how much fun it is to sit in the floor and pull 150 ft lbs. So yeah, I torqued them. I didn't see anything obviously wrong with them either. I'm also skeptical that could be the problem since both the steering box and the engine are bolted to the k-frame so their spatial relationship is fixed and the coupler slid straight on the splines.
Super-Cuda
MOPAR .. Move Over, Plymouth Approaching Rapidly!
This is just a shot in the dark but are the motor mount brackets in the right place on the engine block?
Super-Cuda
MOPAR .. Move Over, Plymouth Approaching Rapidly!
Looking at this pic, The engine has to go down or back to clear the header tube.
Uncle Bob
Shiny paint causes stress.
I think so, they're on the back side of the ears
There's something going on with that passenger side biscuit, it looks like it slumps down toward the front.
Uncle Bob
Shiny paint causes stress.
Back would help but I'm not sure about down. Seems like that would swing the engine forward right into the coupler. My vote is for up and it would swing away from it.
Or sideways toward the passenger side, even better.
Super-Cuda
MOPAR .. Move Over, Plymouth Approaching Rapidly!
Yeah , I think you are right. Towards pass side would be ideal.
No chance you have another set of engine mounts is there?
Even if you could borrow a set to try.
Something strange up here for sure.
Uncle Bob
Shiny paint causes stress.
Not for a small block, no.
Is my understanding correct that I need 340 mounts to put this 360 on biscuits? Or will 318 brackets work?
Do you need biscuit mounts? I got a new set I am not using.
Uncle Bob
Shiny paint causes stress.
What I think might be wrong are the brackets, not the biscuits.
The ones I'm using were bought new from Schumacher and I confirmed when I ordered that they were what I needed to put a 360 on biscuit mounts in a 71 Duster. They absolutely 100% should work but if I could find a set of brackets close by I'd buy/rent/borrow them to see if they help.
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