drilling a hole in the back of your scoop?

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Not sure of relevance but our old bracket Vega had an old school snorkle scoop that sealed on the windshield in the back. Could not get the car to run on the top end( acted fuel starved) after checking several things my engine builder suggested blocking off the scoop at the rear just beyond the carb ( sealed carb pan). Next pass the car ran like a raped ape clear to the end.His theory was that at speed the air running into the scoop was moving too fast past the carb and sucking fuel out of the carb. Kinda sounds opposite of what post # 18 said but that was my experience. Posting pic of car to show what scoop I'm talking about...Good luck.

Our old race car.jpg
 
22"wide x3.5" tall

Thanks, That's all i need to figure it out!

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I would say it makes more sense that any speed increase (track time decrease) seen after drilling holes in the rear or deck under a scoop is simply due to a slight decrease in drag. The holes will allow potential air pressure build up to decrease, which will act to minimize any potential ram air effect. It is a balancing act to reduce drag while increasing performance gains. Certainly if the hood or scoop is deforming or lifting, there is probably more drag being created than I would expect would be offset by any performance increase.

"Dead air" means nothing. It is air under higher than atmospheric pressure, so it doesn't matter if it is stagnant.
I can't help but agree with that statement.....but i'm no scientist and there may be something to this.
 
Is there any proven math for this?
this is purely speculation here BUT
Thinking a little deeper from my statement above 1.5" tall X 12" wide X2 scoops= area of 36"....../ by 8= 4.5 So 4.5 5/8" holes in the back!?!

how many inches is the opening of your scoop?
22"wide x3.5" tall
So scope opening is 77"/8 = 9.6 5/8 holes. and you drilled four, 5/8 holes.......
77/19=4.05 holes (close enough)
My hood scoop area is 36" so 36/19=1.895. close enough to 2 so...one 5/8 hole for each scoop. Perfect now i can drill two drain holes.

I know most of you think i'm silly because them twin scoop of mine, are never going to create any ram affect let alone too much!

But now when i cut up my stock hood(or buy a fiberglass hood with a scoop) i can refer back to this thread for my drain holes.
And now the formula is highlighted to find easier:poke::D
 
Not sure of relevance but our old bracket Vega had an old school snorkle scoop that sealed on the windshield in the back. Could not get the car to run on the top end( acted fuel starved) after checking several things my engine builder suggested blocking off the scoop at the rear just beyond the carb ( sealed carb pan). Next pass the car ran like a raped ape clear to the end.His theory was that at speed the air running into the scoop was moving too fast past the carb and sucking fuel out of the carb. Kinda sounds opposite of what post # 18 said but that was my experience. Posting pic of car to show what scoop I'm talking about...Good luck.

View attachment 1714959044
me like vega station wagons !
 
I would say it makes more sense that any speed increase (track time decrease) seen after drilling holes in the rear or deck under a scoop is simply due to a slight decrease in drag. The holes will allow potential air pressure build up to decrease, which will act to minimize any potential ram air effect. It is a balancing act to reduce drag while increasing performance gains. Certainly if the hood or scoop is deforming or lifting, there is probably more drag being created than I would expect would be offset by any performance increase.

"Dead air" means nothing. It is air under higher than atmospheric pressure, so it doesn't matter if it is stagnant.

I'd also tend to agree, with a twist: the stagnated air in the scoop effectively makes the scoop behave, aerodynamically, as if it was a solid mass with the front opening plugged. The design of the scoop matters a lot at this point, because a lot of designs basically become a solid wall and the rest of the 'relative wind' (air moving past the car) is deflected away from the scoop opening. If you look at pro stock scoops, there's a reason for the bulged shape and smallish opening (relative the max width of scoop). If you imagine it as a solid shape without the opening, it would still be aerodynamic. A hemi scoop? Not so much.

Even a smallish opening in the scoop pan would let air flow and not stagnate, which reduces the drag induced by the air wall created by the effectively solid scoop opening. The downside is that the stagnation pressure isn't reached, and so much of the ram effect would be lost. Too big of a bypass opening, and the air rushing over top of the carb will act just like the carb venturis: the pressure over top the carb comes down and fuel/air doesn't go INTO the engine, but out of it - or at least manifold pressure will be reduced and thus power will also come down.

As with anything: there's no hard and fast rule. It all depends on the setup and combination. A bad scoop will create more drag than power, but could still look cool and be worth drilling some holes in the pan ;)
 
I am a mechanical engineer and this question is one of the types we address.
And............
Enlighten us.
can you have stagnant air? how does it affect the carb?
Lay some theory on me! I know, every scoop will have its own personal problems. but just some basic fact, like does and dont's to help us all out.
 
And............
Enlighten us.
can you have stagnant air? how does it affect the carb?
Lay some theory on me! I know, every scoop will have its own personal problems. but just some basic fact, like does and dont's to help us all out.
What happens if you fill an air tank up to 100 psi? It sits there under pressure, stagnant in your words. If you open a dump valve you will have nearly instantaneous release of that air. The higher the pressure, the more forceful the release. The bigger scoop will trap more air and will build potentially higher pressures that will be used when the carb blades open more.

Unfortunately, I don't have "does and don'ts" to help you out because it is very complicated to analyze and there are too many variables. I think that field testing is probably your best bet. Don't make the scoop so large that it overcomes the power advantage by increasing the drag too much. Larger engines/carbs can use more air (duh) so they could use a little larger scoop. Getting cool air into the carb is just as important. The cooler the better (think inter cooler on a turbo engine).

It also seems to me that you would want to minimize the turbulence created while building air pressure with your scoop. The way to do that is to make the scoop more like a funnel, with smooth (albeit curved) sides that lead directly to the top of the carb. That way, all air that comes in is directly funneled into the carb in a laminar flow manner, without the creation of turbulence.

I haven,t worked in the engine field like IQ52 and others here have. They can probably give better advice based on their practical experiences.
 
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What happens if you fill an air tank up to 100 psi? It sits there under pressure, stagnant in your words. If you open a dump valve you will have nearly instantaneous release of that air. The higher the pressure, the more forceful the release. The bigger scoop will trap more air and will build potentially higher pressures that will be used when the carb blades open more.

Unfortunately, I don't have "does and don'ts" to help you out because it is very complicated to analyze and there are too many variables. I think that field testing is probably your best bet. Don't make the scoop so large that it overcomes the power advantage by increasing the drag too much. Larger engines/carbs can use more air (duh) so they could use a little larger scoop. Getting cool air into the carb is just as important. The cooler the better (think inter cooler on a turbo engine).

It also seems to me that you would want to minimize the turbulence created while building air pressure with your scoop. The way to do that is to make the scoop more like a funnel, with smooth (albeit curved) sides that lead directly to the top of the carb. That way, all air that comes in is directly funneled into the carb in a laminar flow manner, without the creation of turbulence.

I haven,t worked in the engine field like IQ52 and others here have. They can probably give better advice based on their practical experiences.

Thank you for taking the time to write all of this.
One question, what is or, what does a (albeit curved) look like? I tryed to google it but didn't get anything having to do with shape or air flow.
 
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image.png
Thank you for taking the time to write all of this.
One question, what is or, what does a (albeit curved) look like? I tryed to google it but didn't get anything having to do with shape or air flow.
"Albeit" is not a type of curve, it just means "though". The curve would be the smoothest, gentlest curve possible to transition from the front opening of the scoop, turning to become a matching interface with the top opening of the carburetor. The curve should end up being close to perpendicular to the circled opening of the carb's top circle. I tried to sketch this above on my iPad, but it is very rough trying to draw with a finger tip. A 4" (? - to match the carb's top circle) PVC plumbing 90 degree elbow would have a bend in it that is too short radius. So if you can imagine starting there and enlarging the radius of the bend as it turns to the front scoop opening to a larger radius. Then try making the front of the scoop larger (from the 4" diameter at the carb's top) at the scoop's front opening until you reach the point that drag overcomes the power added from the ram effect. The main thing you will notice is that there are no "pockets" in this scoop where air can be trapped or churn up turbulence. All air inside the scoop will eventually be directed into the carb.

keep in mind that you can cover the scoop I just described with an outer shell to improve its looks.

I hope this clears up my thoughts for you (no thanks are necessary).
 
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"Albeit" is not a type of curve, it just means "though". The curve would be the smoothest, gentlest curve possible to transition from the front opening of the scoop, turning to become a matching interface with the top opening of the carburetor. The curve should end up being close to perpendicular to the circled opening of the carb's top circle. I tried to sketch this above on my iPad, but it is very rough trying to draw with a finger tip. A 4" (? - to match the carb's top circle) PVC plumbing 90 degree elbow would have a bend in it that is too short radius. So if you can imagine starting there and enlarging the radius of the bend as it turns to the front scoop opening to a larger radius. Then try making the front of the scoop larger (from the 4" diameter at the carb's top) at the scoop's front opening until you reach the point that drag overcomes the power added from the ram effect. The main thing you will notice is that there are no "pockets" in this scoop where air can be trapped or churn up turbulence. All air inside the scoop will eventually be directed into the carb.

I hope this clears up my thoughts for you (no thanks are necessary).

so, whats the theory on a pcv running to a sealed scoop, w/ a k-n type air filter, plumbed in inside the filter? will there still be too much pressure for it ? food for thot. fast 2.0 throttle body doesn`t have a place for a pcv, or a breather vent line.
 
so, whats the theory on a pcv running to a sealed scoop, w/ a k-n type air filter, plumbed in inside the filter? will there still be too much pressure for it ? food for thot. fast 2.0 throttle body doesn`t have a place for a pcv, or a breather vent line.
Yes, I ignored the probable need for filtering the air. I definitely wouldn't put this on an engine without a filter. I don't know if someone makes a cone filter, but a can filter would be blocking off the airflow. You guys probably know a lot more than I on things like where to plumb a PCV or breather vent line, but these things need to be accounted for as well. Maybe drill into the intake to get the PCV into the vacuum side?

Practicalities can make theories difficult to build.
 
68gtxman wrote:
PVC plumbing 90 degree elbow would have a bend in it that is too short radius. So if you can imagine starting there and enlarging the radius of the bend as it turns to the front scoop opening to a larger radius.

So just like porting a head. need to widen the short side turn and make the radius as large as possible within the confines of the port/valve.

With these thoughts, i know my setup would be a turbulent nightmare the way it is now. good thing i'm only running 1/8 mile. and about 85 mph
That hole alum sheet is open to the scoops..............

0627162013a.jpg
0627162013.jpg
 
i just brought a tube chassis 69 dart with a big scoop,took it out yesterday for test and tune,had no holes in the rear,i ran 1/8 ,on the big end the scoop and hood wanted to lift off in the center,so i might try putting a hole back there

00z0z_l50jzYLohpY_1200x900.jpg
 
Take your drill to the track and make holes after another run there. See if it affects your ET or just the pressure causing the hood to bow.
Vary nice car by the way.
What did it run? what combo for the eng/drivetrain.
 
Not an A body but in the 1980's I fitted this air scoop to a high milage Ford engine that previously had a basic 14" open air cleaner and I picked up 3 tenths and 6 MPH with no other changes. It was completely sealed. I'm currently fitting one the same now but to a single butterfly injected Chrysler small block in a FED and based on my past experience it would take a lot for me to drill any holes
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Weather it works or not I won't be cutting any holes in my $600.00 AAR hood thats for sure:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
Is the hood rise caused by too much air coming in thru the radiator opening / grille area?....try sealing it off a bit and see if it helps. Seemed to work in the 70's with some of the Mopar Pro Stocks.

Joe Pappas, a distinguished member of the Don Carlton Mopar Missle crew , mentioned "too much air" when discussing the need for a front middle hood pin for the Missile during a BS session at this year's Nats. Sure makes a lot of sense. When racing, it is not like the car is sitting, motor running in traffic......total time to make a pass is less than 2 minutes so the big /factory opening not needed..

Side benefit....car might goes faster.
 
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so, whats the theory on a pcv running to a sealed scoop, w/ a k-n type air filter, plumbed in inside the filter? will there still be too much pressure for it ? food for thot. fast 2.0 throttle body doesn`t have a place for a pcv, or a breather vent line.
wrong! has two openings- my bad.
 
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