Drivability blower vs turbos

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tqfastfish said:
nope, my dads to technology illiterate to be on here, lol, his words not mine,

I'm building this car completely by myself , money wise. we do everything in house, I have stalked up parts for a couple years now and I already have the engine and we build the engines, paint, body ect, we never usually do but I am for this car, I am funding it by mainly parting out cars or buying a project , building it and selling, to gain some motivation and money for my dart.... don't worry guys..... I have grown up around mopars, my dad used to own a 66 coronet and he dragraces a 1970 and 72 cuda, I am the a body guy,
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Well sounds like you got you got your stuff together kid, better than I do and I'm 8 years ahead of you lol! Hope when I have kids they end up mopar nuts like you.

Mopower to ya and good luck!:burnout:
^^^^^^^^
Worst. Pun. EVER!
 
I have a turbo 440 b-body, remote mount with an s475. With an S480 (80mm/1.32AR) you will be beyond the limits of any factory wedge block. An S480 will make a difference over the 75MM T6 S475 but the 1.32AR is really the limiting factor with big cubic inch. A 400 low deck (not 451) is really the best of both worlds in cubic inch and durability. You can mount a single S475 and make great power, enough to run mid-low nines on pump fuel in a reasonably light a-body with box stock aluminum heads and a mild camshaft (500-550 lift/[email protected]/112-115LSA). Also, with a 26" tire 2.76 gears work great, 28" 2.94's, 30" 3.23's (if running 727). Make sure you purchase a converter for a turbo application, I have one built by TSI (3,200-3,400 stall) and runs great with .528 solid cam from Mopar (great budget turbo cam). What I am trying to say is, yes some turbos may not be ideal but their is only 'so much' you can put to the ground, and 9 seconds in the quarter with granny gears should be enough for any street application. I would shoot for a safe 750-800HP, 9.0-9.5:1 CR @12psi (more with meth) as you will gain more power per/psi with higher compression. if your engine makes 500HP off boost, 15# is 1,000HP at the crank if everything goes right. Just keep that in mind, 8-12PSI is more than enough to make serious power with 400ci and the right turbo. The only thing I am going to add is it is much easier to build a SBM on a budget with a front mount turbo, as factory manifolds work. With a BBM their are no options for this, nor space (in a realistic manner), and custom headers must be built which really eats away at a budget. I didn't have the room, my spectre carb hat that you posted earlier has 1/4" clearance with my six pack hood... I was going to go EV or CSU but obviously they are 1/2" taller. Good luck, hope I helped a bit. It is easy to look at an all out race application and say 'oh, that looks easy enough'. Try stuffing a T6 housing that weighs 50# into your engine bay running full accessories in a street car along with a 5" DP. Torsion bars are what make it a nightmare. People who say it is easy normally have tube frame chassis and are running aftermarket suspension, non existent inner fenders, and tubular k-frames to push the shock towers outward. Along with this, most drag applications run the DP out the fender.. see how well that goes in traffic... A Small block with a T4 GT45 or similar turbo makes it worlds easier to front mount and will make 600hp without breaking a sweat.
 
If u really want to run nines and still have a daily driver .... Follow the k.i.s.s.

Keep
It
Simple
Stupid

My dart is capable of running low 9's on 93 naturally aspirated u keep it low weight no fillers good quality suspension good drag radials and a big block or small block with at least 650 hp both of which r possible on 93 octane so unless u want to go like 8's keep it naturally aspirated just build a nice quality base and do a simple yet tourquey and powerful motor

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67 prostreet gt said:
If u really want to run nines and still have a daily driver .... Follow the k.i.s.s.

Keep
It
Simple
Stupid

My dart is capable of running low 9's on 93 naturally aspirated u keep it low weight no fillers good quality suspension good drag radials and a big block or small block with at least 650 hp both of which r possible on 93 octane so unless u want to go like 8's keep it naturally aspirated just build a nice quality base and do a simple yet tourquey and powerful motor

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Click to expand...

What N/A 93 octane big block, let alone small block is making 650HP on the street or around 525RWHP? It is easy to make well over 600RWHP in a turbo application with very low boost levels. We are talking on the lines of Ray Barton Hemi power territory with a simple, pump gas 400+S480 turbo combo @10-12PSI, low compression, max power well below 6,000 RPM, and 2.76-3.23 gearing.

To answer the OP's question, I believe the turbo is by far the best route and most cost effective. An S480 (1.32AR) is $1,000 new. Add in a used $500 CSU blow through carb, etc. and you'll be at around $3,000 when its all finished with the nickel and dime.

A blower application from 'the blower shop' will more than likely cost you double, if not triple this amount to make less efficient power and LESS power overall, all while giving poor fuel economy (two big blower carbs) and a torque curve that is terrible for the street, as it just will blow tires away.

A Supercharger, such as a paxton or procharger are great alternatives. Still, once again, not nearly as efficient as a turbo application but very easy to install in comparison.
 
sweet5ltr said:
what n/a 93 octane big block, let alone small block is making 650hp on the street or around 525rwhp? It is easy to make well over 600rwhp in a turbo application with very low boost levels. We are talking on the lines of ray barton hemi power territory with a simple, pump gas 400+s480 turbo combo @10-12psi, low compression, max power well below 6,000 rpm, and 2.76-3.23 gearing.

To answer the op's question, i believe the turbo is by far the best route and most cost effective. An s480 (1.32ar) is $1,000 new. Add in a used $500 csu blow through carb, etc. And you'll be at around $3,000 when its all finished with the nickel and dime.

A blower application from 'the blower shop' will more than likely cost you double, if not triple this amount to make less efficient power and less power overall, all while giving poor fuel economy (two big blower carbs) and a torque curve that is terrible for the street, as it just will blow tires away.

A supercharger, such as a paxton or procharger are great alternatives. Still, once again, not nearly as efficient as a turbo application but very easy to install in comparison.
Click to expand...

x-2!!!
 
Sweet5ltr said:
67 prostreet gt said:
If u really want to run nines and still have a daily driver .... Follow the k.i.s.s.

Keep
It
Simple
Stupid

My dart is capable of running low 9's on 93 naturally aspirated u keep it low weight no fillers good quality suspension good drag radials and a big block or small block with at least 650 hp both of which r possible on 93 octane so unless u want to go like 8's keep it naturally aspirated just build a nice quality base and do a simple yet tourquey and powerful motor

Posted via Topify using iPhone/iPad
Click to expand...

What N/A 93 octane big block, let alone small block is making 650HP on the street or around 525RWHP? It is easy to make well over 600RWHP in a turbo application with very low boost levels. We are talking on the lines of Ray Barton Hemi power territory with a simple, pump gas 400+S480 turbo combo @10-12PSI, low compression, max power well below 6,000 RPM, and 2.76-3.23 gearing.

To answer the OP's question, I believe the turbo is by far the best route and most cost effective. An S480 (1.32AR) is $1,000 new. Add in a used $500 CSU blow through carb, etc. and you'll be at around $3,000 when its all finished with the nickel and dime.

A blower application from 'the blower shop' will more than likely cost you double, if not triple this amount to make less efficient power and LESS power overall, all while giving poor fuel economy (two big blower carbs) and a torque curve that is terrible for the street, as it just will blow tires away.

A Supercharger, such as a paxton or procharger are great alternatives. Still, once again, not nearly as efficient as a turbo application but very easy to install in comparison.
Click to expand...

My 526 is making 736 hp 711 tq at the flywheels which is equivalent to 660-670 hp to the rear tires and in a 2800 pound street car that is in the 9.4 9.3 range and o ya 2800 is with 15x15 rear steel wheels and 15x4 steel fronts

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67 prostreet gt said:
My 526 is making 736 hp 711 tq at the flywheels which is equivalent to 660-670 hp to the rear tires and in a 2800 pound street car that is in the 9.4 9.3 range and o ya 2800 is with 15x15 rear steel wheels and 15x4 steel fronts

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To be honest with you, you're making 625RWHP at best with an estimated 15% drivetrain loss. Even less considering your twisting massive meats'. Big inches, big power is great and all, but making 700+HP N/A (i'm guessing 526 'big dollar' Hemi on an engine dyno with no accessories) in comparison to a mild 400 with Eddy' heads, 'tiny' solid lifter camshaft, and a BW S475/S480 turbo are two animals entirely. That lil' 400 has the capability to make 900-1,000HP at the crank on Methanol Injection and the right (A/W) intercooler setup... Do we also need to get to the fact that pulling 6,500-7,000RPM with a big stroked wedge or Hemi, 4.30-4.56 gearing, .700 lift solid roller cams, and 5,000 stalls are not needed to run low nines with the powerplant above? A simple 2.76-3.23 gear (depending on tire size), 3,200-3,400 stall converter, off the shelf street solid camshaft, and pulling mediocre RPM while crossing the traps at 140+MPH with ease (if it was even making 800HP at the crank) in a 2,800# car will get you their.

I love big Hemi's, but most people in the Chrysler world are still stuck in the dark age. For the 1% that have a Hemi that's great, you have the potential to build big power for big dollars.. For the other 99% stuck with small blocks and mediocre big blocks, turbocharging is the best solution to make reasonably big power on a budget. It just isn't well documented as us Mopar guys tend to be ten to twenty years behind the latest trends..
 
Sweet5ltr said:
To be honest with you, you're making 625RWHP at best with an estimated 15% drivetrain loss. Even less considering your twisting massive meats'. Big inches, big power is great and all, but making 700+HP N/A (i'm guessing 526 'big dollar' Hemi on an engine dyno with no accessories) in comparison to a mild 400 with Eddy' heads, 'tiny' solid lifter camshaft, and a BW S475/S480 turbo are two animals entirely. That lil' 400 has the capability to make 900-1,000HP at the crank on Methanol Injection and the right (A/W) intercooler setup... Do we also need to get to the fact that pulling 6,500-7,000RPM with a big stroked wedge or Hemi, 4.30-4.56 gearing, .700 lift solid roller cams, and 5,000 stalls are not needed to run low nines with the powerplant above? A simple 2.76-3.23 gear (depending on tire size), 3,200-3,400 stall converter, off the shelf street solid camshaft, and pulling mediocre RPM while crossing the traps at 140+MPH with ease (if it was even making 800HP at the crank) in a 2,800# car will get you their.

I love big Hemi's, but most people in the Chrysler world are still stuck in the dark age. For the 1% that have a Hemi that's great, you have the potential to build big power for big dollars.. For the other 99% stuck with small blocks and mediocre big blocks, turbocharging is the best solution to make reasonably big power on a budget. It just isn't well documented as us Mopar guys tend to be ten to twenty years behind the latest trends..
Click to expand...

What you say here is very true... but from a common sense standpoint, it's really moot anytime you get much over 500 horsepower in a car that weighs 2,800 pounds because number one, it is almost impossible to hook up that kind of power on the street with tires that are street-legal and two. a 2,800-pound car that has over 500 hp is scary-fast already, so what's the point. unless you're just building a race car for the street?

Any car with 500 horsepower that is that very light, is going to go over 130mph in the quarter, which is insane on the street under any conceivable circumstances.

So, it boils down to the methodology you prefer to get you there, I think. Do you want to fool with the (available, but complicated) technology necessary to make a LOT of horsepower with (considerable) boost on a wedge engine, or would you prefer to, instead, spend a lot of money for the cosmetic advantages afforded you by a naturally-aspirated, big-inch Hemi, with the (necessary) exotic parts that can deliver that kind of performance?

You pays your money and you takes your choice...:banghead:
 
What does a Ray Barton Hemi cost nowadays? Upwards of $20,000? Chrysler 'crate' Hemi $15,000?

Real comparable options... :violent1:
 
It's a wedge motor and for a street car 9's on 93 octane naturally aspirated is good for me

My my my look at those WEDGE heads

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And also sorry for the triple post but since its a wedge and its on an iron block the costs r down alot like try 9,000 to build this motor

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Bill Dedman said:
What you say here is very true... but from a common sense standpoint, it's really moot anytime you get much over 500 horsepower in a car that weighs 2,800 pounds because number one, it is almost impossible to hook up that kind of power on the street with tires that are street-legal and two. a 2,800-pound car that has over 500 hp is scary-fast already, so what's the point. unless you're just building a race car for the street?

Any car with 500 horsepower that is that very light, is going to go over 130mph in the quarter, which is insane on the street under any conceivable circumstances.

So, it boils down to the methodology you prefer to get you there, I think. Do you want to fool with the (available, but complicated) technology necessary to make a LOT of horsepower with (considerable) boost on a wedge engine, or would you prefer to, instead, spend a lot of money for the cosmetic advantages afforded you by a naturally-aspirated, big-inch Hemi, with the (necessary) exotic parts that can deliver that kind of performance?

You pays your money and you takes your choice...:banghead:
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X's 2 Bill. My 340 with a 6-71 has somewhere between 650 and 700 HP at the crank in a 3100 lb car and it is scary on the street. You don't have to give it much peddle and all hell breaks loose. I will not let anybody behind the wheel but me. And sometimes I'm not sure about me. LOL

Jack
 
1970Duster said:
Use two turbos. If you're worried about lag or something run one big one and one small one. The small one will build boost while the bigger one is spooling up.
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I have no experience with boosted engines. However I was a locomotive engineer and the END locomotives were blown and turbo'd 2 stroke. Pulled like banshees. The GEs were turbo 4 stroke and didn't pull as hard down low.

Has a combination of turbo and supercharger been done on an automotive application?
 
67 prostreet gt said:
And also sorry for the triple post but since its a wedge and its on an iron block the costs r down alot like try 9,000 to build this motor

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Good luck with that, unless it's a mega block I don't see it lasting long making that much power. Crank walk is one of the biggest issues with the 440 block design above 700HP. Also very hard to believe a wedge that makes 730ish horsepower is doing it at 5600RPM unless it's 13:1 compression with max wedge ported heads and a solid roller camshaft in the .650/270* @.050 range. I would expect heads that flow enough to support 730HP to be lazy, flowing at minimum 360cfm. Somehow I don't see this as a budget N/A build but more of an all out strip, minimum street setup. Sounds like a wild combo though when you are on the throttle!
 
Stick 1970 hp 440 block with a girdle runs on 93 octane no problem it's just a well thought out system and it is a riot at full throttle

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Bill Dedman said:
Sweet5ltr said:
To be honest with you, you're making 625RWHP at best with an estimated 15% drivetrain loss. Even less considering your twisting massive meats'. Big inches, big power is great and all, but making 700+HP N/A (i'm guessing 526 'big dollar' Hemi on an engine dyno with no accessories) in comparison to a mild 400 with Eddy' heads, 'tiny' solid lifter camshaft, and a BW S475/S480 turbo are two animals entirely. That lil' 400 has the capability to make 900-1,000HP at the crank on Methanol Injection and the right (A/W) intercooler setup... Do we also need to get to the fact that pulling 6,500-7,000RPM with a big stroked wedge or Hemi, 4.30-4.56 gearing, .700 lift solid roller cams, and 5,000 stalls are not needed to run low nines with the powerplant above? A simple 2.76-3.23 gear (depending on tire size), 3,200-3,400 stall converter, off the shelf street solid camshaft, and pulling mediocre RPM while crossing the traps at 140+MPH with ease (if it was even making 800HP at the crank) in a 2,800# car will get you their.

I love big Hemi's, but most people in the Chrysler world are still stuck in the dark age. For the 1% that have a Hemi that's great, you have the potential to build big power for big dollars.. For the other 99% stuck with small blocks and mediocre big blocks, turbocharging is the best solution to make reasonably big power on a budget. It just isn't well documented as us Mopar guys tend to be ten to twenty years behind the latest trends..
Click to expand...

What you say here is very true... but from a common sense standpoint, it's really moot anytime you get much over 500 horsepower in a car that weighs 2,800 pounds because number one, it is almost impossible to hook up that kind of power on the street with tires that are street-legal and two. a 2,800-pound car that has over 500 hp is scary-fast already, so what's the point. unless you're just building a race car for the street?

Any car with 500 horsepower that is that very light, is going to go over 130mph in the quarter, which is insane on the street under any conceivable circumstances.

So, it boils down to the methodology you prefer to get you there, I think. Do you want to fool with the (available, but complicated) technology necessary to make a LOT of horsepower with (considerable) boost on a wedge engine, or would you prefer to, instead, spend a lot of money for the cosmetic advantages afforded you by a naturally-aspirated, big-inch Hemi, with the (necessary) exotic parts that can deliver that kind of performance?

You pays your money and you takes your choice...
BangHead.gif
Click to expand...


Go check out my build thread "the Pheonix" you'll see wat this car my motor is going into

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67 prostreet gt said:
Stick 1970 hp 440 block with a girdle runs on 93 octane no problem it's just a well thought out system and it is a riot at full throttle

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I love big power wedge motors! Mine made around 600HP prior to swapping over to the turbo build, this was on pump 93 running 34* timing. It is so easy to make 700+HP with a turbo engine it is almost ridiculous though. Little 5.3 LSx engines are making this kind of power to the rear, with minimal modifications. I am talking junkyard 5.3 Chevrolet engines, with as little as a camshaft swap (most choose LS6/LS9 factory designs), heavy duty valve springs, and a large BW T6 S475/S480. They will last forever at this power level as well. It is remarkable to say the least, and really opens your eyes. I remember ten years ago at the local 1/8th mile strip, a stock foxbody mustang hatchback (exterior wise, was a twin turbo 347) still sporting pony rims and street radials (not sure if the M/T DR's were even out back then) ran 5.9 seconds in the 1/8th mile. This car sounded bone stock, he was only allowed to run one pass before they kicked him off. Their was a 500ci duster with Indy 440-1 Heads and a radical solid' camshaft out their as well, running a 275 two stage nitrous setup. It was a big tire car, with 4.56 gears. He ran near identical times. It should have opened my eyes back then, foolishly, I took it as a fluke as turbocharging was foreign to me and only 'the ricers' done it. What an altered way of thinking this was to say the least.
 
We have a 540 blown 1968 power wagon so I know how both kinds of engine systems work and wat doesn't work for building power the 540 is a 1400 hp on 93 octane street motor

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I don't have any Turbo Mopars to compare to, but my 6-71 Blown 340 Duster does fine on the street.

Around town/below 25mph, I usually coast around at an idle in 3rd gear, I tend to pull out from a stop in 2nd or 3rd gear too, even then it'll break loose in the blink of an eye if you give it just a little throttle.

I haven't had it on the dyno yet, still working some bugs out of the car, but my butt and my brain both say "SCARY!!!!" :D It's definitely a fun street car, and if you keep your foot WAY OUT of the throttle, it does just fine. Nobody else (except my dad) will ever be allowed behind the wheel of it though.
 
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