Edelbrock valve spring replacements

-
B3422w5 said:
Those springs you mention above are suggested for use on a mechanical roller cam? If so must be ultra mild street type cam with super soft lobes. My flat tappet springs are nearly that stout.
I ran a roller that was 240/590 spring pressures and i thought that was moderate spring pressure as that cam saw a lot of street driving. 155-165 seems mighty light
Click to expand...
No, I simply pointed out that each of those springs is in the same ballpark as Comp Cams' 928-16 spring, which has 190lb on the seat at 1.800" and a rate of 354lb - and is the suggested spring for all Comp Cams drag race and oval race mechanical flat tappets for the LA Engine.

If you don't want to machine the spring pockets, then I would look for an LS spring that matches whatever the cam manufacturer recommends and see if it fits the bill.

Incidentally, this thread is about fitting springs to Edelbrock heads without machining. I don't need to repeat myself - all the info is contained and is correct regarding the use of LS springs - and I am not recommending beehives to anyone. They are just the spring I use in my application and they have worked very well. You can all do your own homework now.
 
yellow rose said:
Yep, you machinist is correct. I swallowed the beehive spring crap. I fought them for awhile. Then I just stopped using them.

Open the pockets up, get the correct springs and go.

BTW, ask your machinist to go to b3racingengines.com and look over his tech pages. He WILL have to correct your geometry and Mike has the best system I've found.

Your valve train will thank you for correcting the geometry. I never look at getting the sweep centered. I'd rather have the sweep as narrow as I can and not worry about getting it centered. IOW, I'd rather have a .050 wide sweep that's outboard of center a bit than an .080 wide sweep that's centered.
Click to expand...
Ten 4 thank you
I think the last springs Aussie recommend were LS double springs correct & not Bee Hive style .
 
Aussie Charger said:
No, I simply pointed out that each of those springs is in the same ballpark as Comp Cams' 928-16 spring, which has 190lb on the seat at 1.800" and a rate of 354lb - and is the suggested spring for all Comp Cams drag race and oval race mechanical flat tappets for the LA Engine.

If you don't want to machine the spring pockets, then I would look for an LS spring that matches whatever the cam manufacturer recommends and see if it fits the bill.

Incidentally, this thread is about fitting springs to Edelbrock heads without machining. I don't need to repeat myself - all the info is contained and is correct regarding the use of LS springs - and I am not recommending beehives to anyone. They are just the spring I use in my application and they have worked very well. You can all do your own homework now.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your efforts etc.
 
Aussie Charger said:
No, I simply pointed out that each of those springs is in the same ballpark as Comp Cams' 928-16 spring, which has 190lb on the seat at 1.800" and a rate of 354lb - and is the suggested spring for all Comp Cams drag race and oval race mechanical flat tappets for the LA Engine.

If you don't want to machine the spring pockets, then I would look for an LS spring that matches whatever the cam manufacturer recommends and see if it fits the bill.

Incidentally, this thread is about fitting springs to Edelbrock heads without machining. I don't need to repeat myself - all the info is contained and is correct regarding the use of LS springs - and I am not recommending beehives to anyone. They are just the spring I use in my application and they have worked very well. You can all do your own homework now.
Click to expand...

I know, i have eddies on my motor and just set them up last summer.
Those spring pressures you mention are too much for flat tappet cams in most cases.
The guy who specced my springs is a comp cam dealer and well known Mopar head porter/ engine builder. He didnt want anywhere near that much spring on my cam, and its 260@50 and would be considered a race piece
 
Correct. 1Badcolt posted the specs of his flat tappet cam above, so I was just referring to that. Flat tappets don't have the same ramp rates as rollers, so there's less opening and closing stress on the spring. Flat tappet lifters also tend to be lighter than rollers, so need less open pressure to control inertia.
 
I just found a PSI spring that might work better with a flat tappet cam. LS 1512 ML is a dual spring with 130lb on the seat @ 1.800" and 375lb open at 1.200" here: 1500 Series - Performance Springs

However, if you're going to rev it to 8000rpm (as stated on the cam card redline), then I'd probably use something heavier.

As always, check with the cam manufacturer first to see what spring pressures they recommend.
 
Aussie Charger said:
I just found a PSI spring that might work better with a flat tappet cam. LS 1512 ML is a dual spring with 130lb on the seat @ 1.800" and 375lb open at 1.200" here: 1500 Series - Performance Springs

However, if you're going to rev it to 8000rpm (as stated on the cam card redline), then I'd probably use something heavier.

As always, check with the cam manufacturer first to see what spring pressures they recommend.
Click to expand...

Thank you maybe these last ones u recommended will drop right in ??
I think a comment was made about when using double springs they
LS sometimes want fit without machine work your thoughts ???
 
1Badcolt said:
Thank you maybe these last ones u recommended will drop right in ??
I think a comment was made about when using double springs they
LS sometimes want fit without machine work your thoughts ???
Click to expand...
There's no reason I can think of why they wouldn't. You will need the correct spring locators and retainers, but be careful about buying an LS spring kit, as LS engines use 8mm valves and the Eddies have 11/32" valves, so the locks won't fit. However, it may still be cheaper to buy a kit and source the correct 11/32" locks than buying everything individually.

I use Crane stem seals (part 99820-16) and these have an OD of .620", so will clear the ID of the small spring, which is .665" for the PSI and .676" for the Manley.
 
Last edited:
nm9stheham said:
What problems/issues did you encounter?
Click to expand...


The valve job would pound out very quickly. It would also beat the **** out of the locks and stem of the valve.

Went up in pressure a bit. Didn't do anything. Dropped the pressure a bit and it started fracturing the locks.

Then, after getting pissed off at the company supplying the junk, they told me "oh ****, are you using Ti retainers???? How the hell did you get those?" And I said "the dick heads who sold me the head/cam package sent them out together". "Well who the hell did you buy that **** from?" "You ya dick head".

So they sent out their fancy, latest tool steel retainers and it got worse. You could hear it on the dyno. By the third pull it was laboring. So off the dyno and back apart and this time it was beating the valve job up so fast it was stunning.

This time it wrecked a set of Ti intake valves. Knocked the coating off the stems. And coined every seat in the head so bad I couldn't save the valve job. Order a brand new set of intakes and a full set of NB seats from Kibblewhite.

I say...piss on this. These are PAC springs. I'll call them. Get a dude on the phone, tell him what's happening. Before I finish he says "are you using beehives?". I say, "well yes, I am". He says "WTF are you doing that for"? And I say " because the ***** who supposedly sorted all this **** out sent them with the heads because those springs are the **** he says". They guy at PAC says "HORSESHIT. Those springs weren't designed for that kind of stuff". So I say "well f€#k me, send me what I need".

A few days later the new stuff show up. It's a set of doubles with a pretty trick tool steel retainer. Seat pressure is only a bit higher but the spring rate is much higher (forget what it was now, but the rate was much higher). It made more power on the dyno, went faster in the car and he gets two seasons out of a valve job.

I boxed up all the junk ****, put a note in the box that explained to the guy who sold me the junk how when you breed with your mother this is what happens.

That's one reason why I will NEVER, EVER buy a loaded head. Plus the first set of valves were made incorrectly. I asked for tulip valves and got nail heads. The power loss with the nail heads was pretty good. IIRC it was nearly 40 HP at 8500.

So beehive springs we designed to go on soft, easy ramps and relatively low RPM's for the most part. That was around 2006ish. May be better beehives now, but why bother?
 
yellow rose said:
The valve job would pound out very quickly. It would also beat the **** out of the locks and stem of the valve.

Went up in pressure a bit. Didn't do anything. Dropped the pressure a bit and it started fracturing the locks.

Then, after getting pissed off at the company supplying the junk, they told me "oh ****, are you using Ti retainers???? How the hell did you get those?" And I said "the dick heads who sold me the head/cam package sent them out together". "Well who the hell did you buy that **** from?" "You ya dick head".

So they sent out their fancy, latest tool steel retainers and it got worse. You could hear it on the dyno. By the third pull it was laboring. So off the dyno and back apart and this time it was beating the valve job up so fast it was stunning.

This time it wrecked a set of Ti intake valves. Knocked the coating off the stems. And coined every seat in the head so bad I couldn't save the valve job. Order a brand new set of intakes and a full set of NB seats from Kibblewhite.

I say...piss on this. These are PAC springs. I'll call them. Get a dude on the phone, tell him what's happening. Before I finish he says "are you using beehives?". I say, "well yes, I am". He says "WTF are you doing that for"? And I say " because the ***** who supposedly sorted all this **** out sent them with the heads because those springs are the **** he says". They guy at PAC says "HORSESHIT. Those springs weren't designed for that kind of stuff". So I say "well f€#k me, send me what I need".

A few days later the new stuff show up. It's a set of doubles with a pretty trick tool steel retainer. Seat pressure is only a bit higher but the spring rate is much higher (forget what it was now, but the rate was much higher). It made more power on the dyno, went faster in the car and he gets two seasons out of a valve job.

I boxed up all the junk ****, put a note in the box that explained to the guy who sold me the junk how when you breed with your mother this is what happens.

That's one reason why I will NEVER, EVER buy a loaded head. Plus the first set of valves were made incorrectly. I asked for tulip valves and got nail heads. The power loss with the nail heads was pretty good. IIRC it was nearly 40 HP at 8500.

So beehive springs we designed to go on soft, easy ramps and relatively low RPM's for the most part. That was around 2006ish. May be better beehives now, but why bother?
Click to expand...
Well.... that was a heckuva mess. I have been thinking they would be good because:
  • Spring rate goes up with compression so rate is highest where you need it: over the toe of the cam
  • Seat pressures can be less for the same open pressure
I am going to go out on a limb, not google on the internet LOL, and surmise that these springs were vibrating and resonating like crazy internally in your setup, and causing all sorts of pressure impulses and peaks on the valves, seats, locks, etc., and banging the crap out of all those pieces; that would explain the progressive deterioration of the operation, and the increase in damage with a lighter spring.

I can see that happening with a spring with no damping, or no 2nd spring with a different resonant frequency, to help fight resonances in the primary spring. Not what I would have expected for something that is supposedly proven.

You never know 'til the ideas are tried. Now I wonder if this has been refined to certain acceleration limits, etc. or something has been improved/added.

Were you running the .600" range of lift with these?
 
Speaking of the viability of beehive springs, i have first hand knowledge running them in a 71 Duster i sold a year ago this past spring.
You can Google “ LA Confidential Mopar” which will pull up the magazine build article.
Little 318 iron headed pump gas motor i went mid 11’s with at 3400 pounds. Beat on it for three seasons, after all the dyno flogging, then it sitting in a corner for several years before i ran it.
Shifted it at 6500
 
Well, I don't want to get into a big argument about beehives vs duals, but I didn't have a great experience with Pac, either - which is why I ended up with Manley springs.

If you don't all know this already, then the trick with beehives is to shim them to within .050"-.060" of coil bind so that the springs dampen each other when they are compressed. This is vital, as Beehives have no inner damper and rely on reduced retainer and spring weight to help stablise the valvetrain with lower overall pressures.

I saved a good deal of weight moving from a single spring with damper to a beehive. However, this was in part offset by the heavier 1.65 T&D rockers I installed at the same time. The T&Ds have good geometry, but they are quite a heavy rocker compared to others.

The caveat is my engine revs to 7,000 max - most gear changes at the track are around 6,500rpm - so it's not a rev-monster by any means.
 
Aussie Charger said:
Well, I don't want to get into a big argument about beehives vs duals, but I didn't have a great experience with Pac, either - which is why I ended up with Manley springs.

If you don't all know this already, then the trick with beehives is to shim them to within .050"-.060" of coil bind so that the springs dampen each other when they are compressed. This is vital, as Beehives have no inner damper and rely on reduced retainer and spring weight to help stablise the valvetrain with lower overall pressures.

I saved a good deal of weight moving from a single spring with damper to a beehive. However, this was in part offset by the heavier 1.65 T&D rockers I installed at the same time. The T&Ds have good geometry, but they are quite a heavy rocker compared to others.

The caveat is my engine revs to 7,000 max - most gear changes at the track are around 6,500rpm - so it's not a rev-monster by any means.
Click to expand...



I did have them shimmed. The engine ran to 8500. It is a race engine. Not a streetcar.

To this day I won't use a beehive, unless they come up with something different than they have now. As long as engine speed is down, you don't run a ton of lift and the lobe is easy on parts you can probably use them.

In any case I can see no benefit to them. The guys using them to get rocker clearance just don't have the geometry correct.

What pissed me off was I bought the heads with the parts that the guys who made the head said to use. I never do that. For a reason. And this is one of them. I'd have never picked a beehive spring.

As it was, I still had to remove the original seats and switch to NB seats for the Ti valves. That company wanted to use ductile seats. I don't use ductile seats and Ti valves.

It was a regular cluster flop. Now, it's a race winning engine that will go two seasons on a valve job with 50* seats.

I didn't buy loaded heads before that, and I'll never do it again after that. That was why I asked if I could buy the new TF heads empty. And I'd rather not have their port work done on them.

If I can't buy them the way I want, I won't use them. Been there, done that.
 
B3422w5 said:
Speaking of the viability of beehive springs, i have first hand knowledge running them in a 71 Duster i sold a year ago this past spring.
You can Google “ LA Confidential Mopar” which will pull up the magazine build article.
Little 318 iron headed pump gas motor i went mid 11’s with at 3400 pounds. Beat on it for three seasons, after all the dyno flogging, then it sitting in a corner for several years before i ran it.
Shifted it at 6500
Click to expand...
Nice build! Iron-Headed Mopar 318 Magnum Engine- Popular Hot Rodding Magazine

318s "don't get no respect", but I've always liked them. That engine has a really nice flat torque curve and looked like it was still making power above 6500.
 
1Badcolt said:
Thank you maybe these last ones u recommended will drop right in ??
I think a comment was made about when using double springs they
LS sometimes want fit without machine work your thoughts ???
Click to expand...
yellow rose said:
The valve job would pound out very quickly. It would also beat the **** out of the locks and stem of the valve.

Went up in pressure a bit. Didn't do anything. Dropped the pressure a bit and it started fracturing the locks.

Then, after getting pissed off at the company supplying the junk, they told me "oh ****, are you using Ti retainers???? How the hell did you get those?" And I said "the dick heads who sold me the head/cam package sent them out together". "Well who the hell did you buy that **** from?" "You ya dick head".

So they sent out their fancy, latest tool steel retainers and it got worse. You could hear it on the dyno. By the third pull it was laboring. So off the dyno and back apart and this time it was beating the valve job up so fast it was stunning.

This time it wrecked a set of Ti intake valves. Knocked the coating off the stems. And coined every seat in the head so bad I couldn't save the valve job. Order a brand new set of intakes and a full set of NB seats from Kibblewhite.

I say...piss on this. These are PAC springs. I'll call them. Get a dude on the phone, tell him what's happening. Before I finish he says "are you using beehives?". I say, "well yes, I am". He says "WTF are you doing that for"? And I say " because the ***** who supposedly sorted all this **** out sent them with the heads because those springs are the **** he says". They guy at PAC says "HORSESHIT. Those springs weren't designed for that kind of stuff". So I say "well f€#k me, send me what I need".

A few days later the new stuff show up. It's a set of doubles with a pretty trick tool steel retainer. Seat pressure is only a bit higher but the spring rate is much higher (forget what it was now, but the rate was much higher). It made more power on the dyno, went faster in the car and he gets two seasons out of a valve job.

I boxed up all the junk ****, put a note in the box that explained to the guy who sold me the junk how when you breed with your mother this is what happens.

That's one reason why I will NEVER, EVER buy a loaded head. Plus the first set of valves were made incorrectly. I asked for tulip valves and got nail heads. The power loss with the nail heads was pretty good. IIRC it was nearly 40 HP at 8500.

So beehive springs we designed to go on soft, easy ramps and relatively low RPM's for the most part. That was around 2006ish. May be better beehives now, but why bother?
Click to expand...
Aussie Charger said:
Nice build! Iron-Headed Mopar 318 Magnum Engine- Popular Hot Rodding Magazine

318s "don't get no respect", but I've always liked them. That engine has a really nice flat torque curve and looked like it was still making power above 6500.
Click to expand...


Plus u can get um cheap and sometimes find a Mopar steel crank in um.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
-

Back
Top