Gets hot and stalls out

-
Mattax said:
OK. I have no youtube auto people that I can suggest for solid basics and intro. The timing light will probably come with instructions. At least enough to hook it up. Like I mentioned there's an arrow on the inductive clamp and it goes on cylinder #1 spark plug wire. #1 is front left (driver's side) spark plug.

You'll want to look over the top of the light and aim it as best you can at the timing mark. The Harmonic damper is also marked. The strobe will make the marks appear to align or not. Without the dial back feature the balancer mark will line up with a timing mark on the case. That was fine for a factory engine for setting initial timing.

On a '70 up these will be on he left side on the timing cover.
View attachment 1716231624
These only go to 10 degrees Before Top Dead Center. If the timing was set at 17* BTDC (which would be OK with that cam), or if its idling at 1000 rpm so its advanced to something more than 10*, the timing mark on the balancer will be off the scale (under the water pump). That's where timing tape or the dial back light comes into play. On the light use the arrow buttons to bring the timing mark on the balancer so it lines up with the zero on the timing cover.

I've actually seen instructions on this in factory service manuals, but unfortunately I do not think it was Dodge or Plymouth manual.

That said, there is ALOT of info in the service manuals.
www.mymopar.com has many up to '74 or so digitized for download free.

The also have the Master Technicians Conference in pdf and on you tube. It's not that advanced. The booklets and filmstrips range from basic to slightly advanced. These are also available at the Imperial Online Club but in a different format. What I like about their collection is the index with descriptions.
[/URL]

So those should get you going. And guys here are willing to provide a hand on basics as well.
A person can learn how to do a lot of automotive work by rote.
As you handle things and do stuff, it becomes easier to understand the principles.
The reverese is also true. As you pick up on the principles, the things you are doing become easier to understand.
At least that's how it is for me. Everyone is different and may learn a bit differently.
Click to expand...
Those will definitely get me going. Thank you for the references.

I believe the car idles at 1000, but I'll need to pay more attention to that. I tend to watch it during a cold start and then not pay much attention to it after that - I'm usually watching the temp gauge by then.
 
TrailBeast said:
This Holley YouTube video is pretty good for beginning
basics.
I’m a pretty strong believer in not flooding someone with information.
Happens way too much on here.

I can post more informative stuff when needed.

Click to expand...

Fantastic - thank you!
 
In post 1 you mention you have a msd 6a. Is the thin red wire for the ignition wired to a switched 12volt source and not through the ballast resistor?
I had a customer bring a vehicle to me with a hot soak no start issue that had been going on for a couple years. Car would start fine cold, he would drive the car somewhere and when he would come back out it wouldn't start. He would leave the car to completely cool down and when he came back it would start right up.
He drove the car to my shop about 30 miles and when he got here he shut it off. Sure enough it wouldn't start.
Long story short it was the ignition supply to the msd. It was wired to the resistor wire from the ignition switch. When the engine was cold the cranking draw on the electral system was low enough that the ignition supply was just above the threshold needed for the msd box to work. When the engine was warmed up or heat soaked the demand on the electrical system when cranking the engine was higher putting the voltage at the ignition wire just below what the msd box needed to work properly. I ran a test wire from a 12 volt source and it started right up. He was so happy as he had been fighting it for about 2 years and was ready to sell the car (his high school car). Years later he is still happily driving the car.
 
mopar head said:
Buying a model, year specific repair manual and reading through it will be well spent money.
Annnnnd I got treed :p
Click to expand...
Hey - A term I understand! :lol:

I guess I was thinking that with all the aftermarket parts on there a repair manual wouldn't have a lot of value, but then again it'll bring a lot of basic understanding and knowledge that I don't have now.
 
92b said:
In post 1 you mention you have a msd 6a. Is the thin red wire for the ignition wired to a switched 12volt source and not through the ballast resistor?
I had a customer bring a vehicle to me with a hot soak no start issue that had been going on for a couple years. Car would start fine cold, he would drive the car somewhere and when he would come back out it wouldn't start. He would leave the car to completely cool down and when he came back it would start right up.
He drove the car to my shop about 30 miles and when he got here he shut it off. Sure enough it wouldn't start.
Long story short it was the ignition supply to the msd. It was wired to the resistor wire from the ignition switch. When the engine was cold the cranking draw on the electral system was low enough that the ignition supply was just above the threshold needed for the msd box to work. When the engine was warmed up or heat soaked the demand on the electrical system when cranking the engine was higher putting the voltage at the ignition wire just below what the msd box needed to work properly. I ran a test wire from a 12 volt source and it started right up. He was so happy as he had been fighting it for about 2 years and was ready to sell the car (his high school car). Years later he is still happily driving the car.
Click to expand...
The red wire comes out of the box and makes a hard left to the front of the car. From there it’s connected to what seems to be a fuse. That then seems to go to the battery.

IMG_4097.jpeg


IMG_4098.jpeg
 
itsfishy said:
The red wire comes out of the box and makes a hard left to the front of the car. From there it’s connected to what seems to be a fuse. That then seems to go to the battery.

View attachment 1716231876

View attachment 1716231877
Click to expand...
Not sure what that is. Here is a wiring diagram. the thin red ignition wire needs to be connected to 12v source that has power when cranking and in the run position and no power in the off position. heve an assistant help you check voltage at the thin red wire.

Google Image Result for https://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/attachments/wiring-diagram-coil-problem-msd-ignition-wiring-diagram-mon-of-msd-ignition-wiring-diagram-jpg.1715163951/
 
itsfishy said:
Actually I’m not assuming either. What I’m assuming is the heat is the problem: heat can cause fuel boil causing vapor lock, and heat can cause expansion in the coil and/or distributor disrupting spark. So, I’m shielding lines first and looking at the radiator efficiency specifically to isolate the electrical. My premise, hypothesis, is heat is the cause and the other two are symptoms of that cause. Yes, I’m treating one of the symptoms first but I after reading the bulletin and understanding how easy it is for fuel to evaporate, I think shielding the lines is prudent anyway. That’s why I chose that as a starting point.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what bulletin you've read but if it's not very recent (relatively I suppose) it's going to send you down a deep, dark rabbit hole.

Today's fuels do NOT evaporate quickly. What evaporates is the ethanol.

You can test this quite easily. Poor some fuel on a surface and then see how long it takes for it to evaporate. Bring a sandwich. and a good book. It's going to be a while.

It's a real beeotch tuning these engines today with pump gas. Tons of horrible advice out there for sure. It's a two edged sword.

One edge is is that the ethanol flashes off right quick but the gasoline...not so much. As long as you are running an intake manifold with heat (I made that assumption that you were early on, but I'm wrong a lot) you should be fine doing what you can to drop the temperature and not have issues.

Pump gas is graded. We have three grades here. Some people tell me they have four grades but I can't verify that.

Let's call them low grade, Mid grade and premium.

Low grade pump fuel is just that. LOW GRADE. It has the most fillers and junk in it and the best I can describe it is low grade pump fuel is like the wild wild west. Almost anything goes.

Mid grade has a fuel more rules about how much of the fuel can be filler, how much can be detergents and such. This grade is better but it's still pretty open for those other aspects of the fuel.

Premium is just that. It's the best you can get out of a pump. It is far more regulated than the other two grades. It has the least amount of fillers and it uses a much more closely regulated detergent package.

Most of the time I say to run premium in anything with a carb, with the exception of /6 stuff and farm equipment and such. A /6 will usually slurp down anything that will light off and not care.

For everything else, the little that is saved buying a lower grade than premium isn't really doing any favors.

The lower grades usually get less fuel mileage. That's because it takes more fuel to make the same power so you have to fatten it up a bit.

Just remember this. You need the fuel to atomize and then vaporize. It takes more heat to vaporize pump fuel. If you start getting below 180 degrees of coolant temperature you'll need to keep the heat in the intake. I'm talking about keeping the crossover open.

If you want to run cooler than 180 AND if you switch to an intake that doesn't have a crossover (like the air gap, Strip Dominator, Victor or my favorite a tunnel ram) you will need to address the atomization at the carb. The best fix is using a nice annular booster. On top of that, I burr finish every intake manifold and cylinder head I port. That helps too.

I hope this isn't too far down a rabbit hole but pump gas isn't today what it was in the 1960's and 1970's.
 
Long thread and someone probably already covered this, but I would look for the root cause of the problem at the time that it happens. Check the fuel system for flow. Accelerator pump should squirt fuel. If not, the bowls are dry. There should be spark. If not, the problem is electrical.
As a fuel chemist, I detest ethanol in fuel. As stated, Ethanol increased the Reid Vapor Pressure (RVP) of gasoline, so modern gasoline is formulated with less volatile components to keep RVP high decreasing overall volatility and therefore hurting drivability under some conditions.
I have had ethanol fuel in Colorado dry out pump seals in a Carter High Volume mechanical pump in 3 years. They used to last a lifetime. But at least the HV Carter is rebuildable and the rubber seals are simple to replace. Just not inexpensive.
My view is that the factory in the '60's and '70's set engine operating temperature at 180°F for a reason and our older engines probably operate fine at that temp. Higher temps cause fuel percolation (boiling).
I had problems on the strip at the top of second gear all the time due to fuel issues. Just backed out of the throttle and fuel flow returned to what was needed. But it ruined my runs which was not fun.
Recently, I have had more problems with thermostats that stick. My Jeep JK was at 220-230°F multiple time until I replaced the thermostat and added a hole to allow minimum coolant flow all the time. Now it just takes a little longer to worm up, but coolant flows through the engine/radiator all the time.
I agree that checking the radiator for proper heat rejection (Lower hose is cooler than upper hose) is critical. The radiator has to function properly or all kinds of bad thing happen, including fuel percolation.
Good Luck!
 
itsfishy said:
Ah, I gotcha. Sorry, I’m still learning and the curve is steep. No it is not. And a return system will cut down on the chance of vapor lock, right?
Click to expand...
Vapor lock would be my first guess, too. Ii have had that exact same problem from the fuel line running too close to the header tubes. I wrapped that section of line with thermal insulation tape and problem went away.
 
RLF Cuda said:
As a fuel chemist, I detest ethanol in fuel
Click to expand...
Me too.

When really hot out my car would do the same thing but from a stop light, start to move at about 25 mph everything fine then engine looses power, lift off he pedal and it would recover and be find after that.


I have video of my (at one time) clear fuel filter running dry but maintaining 5-7 lbs pressure to the carb. Then the carb would start to run dry, the float would open and a rush of liquid gas would flow in refilling the filter and the bowel.


I switch to non alcohol gas from Maverick
And I don't have that problem anymore.

And I have tried to reproduce it several times.

No changes to the stock 67 273 engine and fuel system.
 
Yup. And its approaching that time of year - winter fuel in the tank but daytime temperatures in the 70s and 80s for many places.
We've talked about this before.
www.forabodiesonly.com

Help on fixing a vapor lock!!!

It’s a 73 swinger with mopar electronic ignition. Holley 1bbl Read what Chrysler was telling their techs about vapor lock and fueling problems. Some vapor in the top of the fuel filter is normal, but should not fill the whole thing! Tilt the filter up so it bups out like Chrysler started doing...
www.forabodiesonly.com www.forabodiesonly.com

1712416855773.png


www.forabodiesonly.com

Hot Fuel Lines

Was wondering if anyone else has ever ran into this issue. Im working on my 66 Dart with a 408. With the build I did I replaced the factory fuel lines with 1/2" aluminum lines and added a return line back to tank. My system goes from tank and runs up the inside of the frame connectors. Then it...
www.forabodiesonly.com www.forabodiesonly.com
 
itsfishy said:
I have a 67 Barracuda with a 408 and iron heads, which means it likes to get hot. This past weekend I took the car out for a quick spin to test a new alternator (Powermaster 95 amp). I pulled into a parking lot and hit stop-and-go traffic; the car got to 210 but held there (weather: 85 degrees and overcast). I shut it down for about 5 - 7 minutes while I ran a quick errand. When I got back and hit the key, it was over 210 but that was to be expected. I started it and pulled out of my space...and it stalled. Tried starting it several times and it would catch and then immediately die again the first couple of times, and then after that it wouldn't catch at all but you could smell the fuel. Ended up having to push it back down the parking lot aisle to get out of the way. It's not unusual for it to take a minute to start after it's been sitting and the temp climbs, but this is the first time it stalled out on me. After about two hours it started up again - and of course had cooled down significantly. It has an MSD 6AL and Blaster 2 coil, MSD plug wires, Holley 750 cfm carb. It does have a hood liner that I've been thinking about removing to try and get the engine bay temps down. It could just be a fluke this time but I'd prefer to not have to push it again if I can help it, so looking for any "preventative medicine" and/or suggestions as to why it happened this time. Many thanks!
Click to expand...
Mine was doing smilar, until I got a composite carb spacer. I have an Edelbrock AVS2, RPM intake with Iron X-heads. When I would stop to get gas, it wouldn't start, or start, then shut off. It was percolating. The spacer cured it.
 
I had a similar issue with my 408 last summer. Checked the carbs (I have a six pack) Timing etc.
ended up being a ignition module mopar performance orange box. and rewired for a single ballast.
I added a 10inch fan on top of an external trans cooler witch cooled it down alot .I live near Vegas.
Was fine after those changes.
 
Dana67Dart said:
Here is the video of what I described earlier about the fuel filter filling with vapors on standard pump gas with alcohol.


New video by Dana Nance
Click to expand...
Oh yeah, check that out. I see what you mean.

Thanks to everyone for the posts; I'm sorry I haven't responded to all of them. I've had to work (SEMI-retired, so still work) and I'm in the middle of a full-blown home renovation, so things are busy. Contractors should be done with their part today but I'm building all the kitchen cabinets; got all the lower carcasses done and working on the wall cabinets now. Anyway, an update, as much as I can give one: I got all the parts and tools in, but really haven't had time to do much with it. I'm hoping to do some tomorrow, but that'll depend on a few things. I'm out of town for work next week so it's going to be a bit before I can really focus on it. I'm very hopeful that the spacer, SS lines, and insulation will fix it but am still interested in looking at the rest (temps on the radiator, timing, etc). Thanks again for the posts and keep them coming, because (as you all have gathered) I've got a lot to learn and every little bit helps!
 
I really like the see-through filter, but the risk is that they are plastic and can crack. I had them on my '66 Belvedere 426 Hemi once. I was driving to the Post Office then to work when I saw flames coming out of the shifter boot. Oh ****! Pulled into the Post Office parking lot and shut off the engine. Opened the hood and flames came from under the air filter. A police car pulled up just then and i said "If you have a fire extinguisher, I have a fire!" And he did. The air cleaner, being so large, actually protected the hood from the flames and only the engine compartment and wiring needed to be painted and replaced. Lucky me!

So, now I avoid plastic filters despite the view they provide.
 
Years ago I owned a big block powered '74 Dart Sport. It would run hot in traffic which, of course makes you anxious. Believe it or not "Water Wetter" (2 bottles) did make a noticeable difference. It's inexpensive and it can't hurt. Good luck.

Screenshot_20210619-075722_Photos.jpg
 
Reddart 1966gt said:
Years ago I owned a big block powered '74 Dart Sport. It would run hot in traffic which, of course makes you anxious. Believe it or not "Water Wetter" (2 bottles) did make a noticeable difference. It's inexpensive and it can't hurt. Good luck.

View attachment 1716235123
Click to expand...
Did you use a mix of water and antifreeze, or straight 'freeze? If a mix, what was the ratio? And sweet car! Thanks!
 
Reddart 1966gt said:
I used water only (summertime in the Northeast). That is what the manufacturer recommends, if I remember correctly.
Click to expand...
Really...That would cause me significant concerns here in west Texas in July/August. We do have RO water I could use (the water here is awful) but I'm not sure I'd be comfortable past 50/50 mix. I have been looking at the Stay Frosty product from VP Racing; anyone have any experience with that product?
 
itsfishy said:
Really...That would cause me significant concerns here in west Texas in July/August. We do have RO water I could use (the water here is awful) but I'm not sure I'd be comfortable past 50/50 mix. I have been looking at the Stay Frosty product from VP Racing; anyone have any experience with that product?
Click to expand...
Check on line. You definitely can use a mix. I was racing the car that summer and wanted maximum cooling.
 
Good afternoon everyone, have an update for you! I put the .25" carb spacer in today (and chased down a horn issue but that's for another post) and took it out for a quick spin. At 40 mph cruising speed the motor just touched 180* (83* and partly sunny weather). It idles at (what I think to be) a low 600 - 700 rpm when in drive, and 800 when in neutral. After sitting in the garage for 5 minutes the gauge indicated an engine temp of just below 195* and the car started with no hesitation.

Aside from the (again, what I consider to be a) low idle speed while in drive, everything went as I expected it to. The real test will be when it gets to 210* while driving, sits for a few minutes and then I go to start it again.

A lot more work to do but figured I'd report in!
 
itsfishy said:
The real test will be when it gets to 210* while driving, sits for a few minutes and then I go to start it again.

A lot more work to do but figured I'd report in!
Click to expand...
a piece of card board in front of the rad core can help with that! just keep on top of it that you don't overheat (IE boil over)

also if an automatic idling in gear will heat things up unless you have a really good fan setup
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
-

Back
Top