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thanson_mopar

thanson_mopar

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hey people, ive got a few questions relating to stroking my 883 to 1200 on my '00 sporty. first, would i find any performance advantages with using 1200 heads vs 883 heads? (i would assume that 883 heads would have smaller combustion chambers?) anyone know how much it would cost to modify my 883 heads to work with the 1200 piston kit. second, does anyone have any or know someone who has a set of 1200 heads for sale. i found a killer deal on a 1200 piston kit but its the stock type piston kit so they say that i either have to modify my 883 heads or buy 1200 heads. so whats the opinions out there?
 
i once actually wanted a gixer 600...but several people i knew died or became peralyzed from cycle accidents. so i have since then thrown the idea of getting one, out.
 
OK heres the deal. The ONLY 1200 head that's any good is the Buell Thunderstorm head. But this must be used with the matching piston due to the chamber shape.
If you are just going to go the 883/1220 conversion route use your 883 head. The factory 1200 head is an open chamber (almost hemi)design and it has zero squish area. As far as the ports are concerned you can put the 1200 conversion valves in the 883 heads. Do not modify the chamber. Use the reverse dome pistons and be sure to set your squish/quench in the .035" to .040" range.This combination will out perform any factory 1200 head every time. With the stock CV carb high flow air cleaner and a good pipe this set up is hard to beat.
 
DusTed74 said:
OK heres the deal. The ONLY 1200 head that's any good is the Buell Thunderstorm head. But this must be used with the matching piston due to the chamber shape.
If you are just going to go the 883/1220 conversion route use your 883 head. The factory 1200 head is an open chamber (almost hemi)design and it has zero squish area. As far as the ports are concerned you can put the 1200 conversion valves in the 883 heads. Do not modify the chamber. Use the reverse dome pistons and be sure to set your squish/quench in the .035" to .040" range.This combination will out perform any factory 1200 head every time. With the stock CV carb high flow air cleaner and a good pipe this set up is hard to beat.
Click to expand...

ok, back on track, thank you for this info

ive got a buddy whos got a 03 sporty and he bought the buell thunder kit. he thinks its ok but his brothers 95 with ported heads, now that i think about it the 95 does have modified 883 heads.....do you know how much it would cost for valves job to get bigger valves in the 883 head
 
sounds like im gona pass up this 1200 kit and just get the kit that doesnt take any head work so i can use my 883 heads, hopfully find out if i can afford to put the bigger valves in and see if i can swing the money for a set of cams too. so then, any companies to look for a good set of valves and/or cams? harley is expensive and im sure that there are some good aftermarket companies that make products just as good for a little cheaper?
 
IMO hang with Ted on this subject. If anyone knows, Ted does. He'll set you up right.
 
First off, thanks for the kind words Rob!
A company called Kibblewhite makes some of the best quality valve train parts out there. But they arent cheap. Remeber I used the word "quality". They have a set of conversion valves that have longer stems so you get the correct stem height. Plus I think they even have some new 7m.m. stem parts now to replace the 5/16" oem stuff. But likely your guides are still good so you will not need those. As far as springs go your stock ones will work fine but I really like the S&S Beehive spring set. I'm running them in mine.
I would hold off on the cams. The money that you would spend on them I would put towards a good set of adjustable pushrods and a digital ignition system. Be sure to get a push rod set thats able to be installed without taking the rocker boxes off. This way when it come time to install the cams you just have to remove the cam cover.
Truth be told its hard to beat the H.D. 536 cam set for power and quiet opperation. All cam sets are costly. Remember there's 4 cams in a Sportster engine, so the price will reflect that.

I hope this helps.
Ted
 
thanson_mopar said:
hey people, ive got a few questions relating to stroking my 883 to 1200 on my '00 sporty. first, would i find any performance advantages with using 1200 heads vs 883 heads? (i would assume that 883 heads would have smaller combustion chambers?) anyone know how much it would cost to modify my 883 heads to work with the 1200 piston kit. second, does anyone have any or know someone who has a set of 1200 heads for sale. i found a killer deal on a 1200 piston kit but its the stock type piston kit so they say that i either have to modify my 883 heads or buy 1200 heads. so whats the opinions out there?
Click to expand...

I did this years ago on the 99 Huggar I own.

OK after I did the exhaust, carb, and other stuff wanted the 1200s power. Most bang for the $$ you will ever see. it will be a completely differant beast when you are done.

I opped for the 883 heads to be modded. in Fact I have them on the shelve and will sell them for a good price if you want them?

Had to have the 883 chambers tweaked for the correct compression per Harley and the increased bore etc. Bike made very good power but I felt the top end was lacking.

so next I added Andrews N4 cams. Made better power lost a little bottom, but not much, still was way sronger even on the bottom than the 883 ever was.

Next the early sporters in the evolution line had a racing better ignition system that was on the susper sports. A much faster ignition curve, higher red line etc. This made the bike much more responsive, of course I had made minor carb jet changes with each change I mentioned.

I still after all this felt the top end suffered and sis not pull as hard as it could about 5k, and 6k on was a waste. I found a guy with a set of Buell heads. MAN Oh MAN what a diff! I also know the 1200s would make more power, but the other post about the quench is correct too. Long story short the Buell heads did not hurt the bottom end at all, power was up from 300 al lthe way to 6800. I never could pull this thing higher than 6k before with the 883 heads. I am sure if the larger valves and some minor port work the 883 would have been better, but not Buell performance.

If you just want a 1200 and not a huge $$ investment the modded 883s are the way to go, for a few $$ bore stuff the 1200 valves i nthem.

Anyway the heads had less than 500 miles and I have them boxed up. if you want these PM me I will make you a good price on them, you can use them as is or make them into 1200 valves too.


OK a few numbers and I have all the sheets packed up.

Stock the bike mde as an 883 no mods
56 rwhp

Exhaust carb twealks bumped base timing
68 rwhp

1200 bore kit and re-jet carb
82 rwhp

Ignitioned added and N4 cams
96 rwhp

Buell heads, more carb work, tweaked the ignition again
114 rwhp and torque up 40 ft lbs from stk

Other mod steps I added almost identical amounts of torque and hp.

Bike is one nasty Huggar, still says 883 on tank is a sleeper and a half. Idles about 1000-1100 very lopy and will run with almost any crotch rock till about 130. I have had the bike at 145 on a track. I kept the 883 sproketcs for the faster 0-60 pullying. This is my play bike.

I have a 2000 Road King Classic with a stage 2 big bore kit. This bike makes great power but is the wife and mines riding oturing bike.
 
No problem Ted. Your bud at the Hot Rod shop speaks volumes for you. He mentioned Louie D had an engine done by yourself sometime back. I remember Louie talking about the old bikes performance and how he liked it.

Lou and myself used to sit up in the engines at Long Island City and Richmond hill yards and B.S. the day away on such things. Funny how things go in circles.

djwhog, I see you have done some work there yourself. Thanks for posting up some numbers with mods. Great stuff to see. It really helps alot.

My '03, 1200 XLC has the basic's on bolt on parts. Such a huge difference it makes. Vance & Hines longshots, HD's Screaming Eagle Ignition, coil, air cleaner kit and jetted up CV woke the bike up wonderfully. No cams. I think I'll leave it like that. It's real nice like this.

Best part is, on the way home from an extra shift in the city, a good 50 miles, I'll use less than a gallon of gas for the ride home.
 
1200 is no question best bang for the $$ on these bikes.

Yep at one point I even saw a kit to do up to 1400cc without modifying the case, and then was going to add a 6speed Andrews trans too. I figured I would kill myself. I have seen these 1200s punched out to the 1350-1400 range and are pretty reliable, but big $$$ to. I even recall a few kits going larger yet. I love my Harleys, but I think for the person that rides 120mph+ a lot, not me any more. Get a Buell or another import or maybe a new Vrod.

Guess I am getting old. I still like the acceleration stuff and major ability to pass folks from 0-90 though.
 
I was just looking at the 6spd tranny from Baker. A little out of my reach for now. As far as speed goes, I'm good with it. I just like a good amount of power to pass peoples on the Hwy. when needed or wanted.

High speed I'm not into. High torque to a mid RPM level I like.

No question about it though. If your intrested in hi end speed, theres other bikes out there that are nothing more than detuned race bikes. I hate the riding position of them myself. But they are the hot ticket for crazy speeds.
 
DusTed74 said:
First off, thanks for the kind words Rob!
A company called Kibblewhite makes some of the best quality valve train parts out there. But they arent cheap. Remeber I used the word "quality". They have a set of conversion valves that have longer stems so you get the correct stem height. Plus I think they even have some new 7m.m. stem parts now to replace the 5/16" oem stuff. But likely your guides are still good so you will not need those. As far as springs go your stock ones will work fine but I really like the S&S Beehive spring set. I'm running them in mine.
I would hold off on the cams. The money that you would spend on them I would put towards a good set of adjustable pushrods and a digital ignition system. Be sure to get a push rod set thats able to be installed without taking the rocker boxes off. This way when it come time to install the cams you just have to remove the cam cover.
Truth be told its hard to beat the H.D. 536 cam set for power and quiet opperation. All cam sets are costly. Remember there's 4 cams in a Sportster engine, so the price will reflect that.

I hope this helps.
Ted
Click to expand...

i see the advantage of buying a good ignition upgrade but why would i want to get a set of adjustable pushrods? is there anything wrong with my stock pushrods?
 
rumblefish360 said:
I was just looking at the 6spd tranny from Baker. A little out of my reach for now. As far as speed goes, I'm good with it. I just like a good amount of power to pass peoples on the Hwy. when needed or wanted.

High speed I'm not into. High torque to a mid RPM level I like.

No question about it though. If your intrested in hi end speed, theres other bikes out there that are nothing more than detuned race bikes. I hate the riding position of them myself. But they are the hot ticket for crazy speeds.
Click to expand...

yea i seen the baker 6 speed, looks fun but its pricy. i would love to spank a few crotch rockets, if fun to see the look on their face
 
djwhog said:
1200 is no question best bang for the $$ on these bikes.

Yep at one point I even saw a kit to do up to 1400cc without modifying the case, and then was going to add a 6speed Andrews trans too. I figured I would kill myself. I have seen these 1200s punched out to the 1350-1400 range and are pretty reliable, but big $$$ to. I even recall a few kits going larger yet. I love my Harleys, but I think for the person that rides 120mph+ a lot, not me any more. Get a Buell or another import or maybe a new Vrod.

Guess I am getting old. I still like the acceleration stuff and major ability to pass folks from 0-90 though.
Click to expand...

wow, who sells a 1400cc kit?

and thanks for telling how you built yours and the horepower per mod. hopfully ill be able to squeeze somthing like that out of my sporty
 
The hydraulic tappets in your Sporster are no different than the ones in a
V-8. They must have the proper pre-load on them to opperate correctly. This is typicly controlled by the push rod length.
In a stock application like you bike is now, the pushrod is a fixed length and is putting the tappet in an average pre-load position. But if you're looking for max performance then you will need to fine tune the adjustment on all 4 tappets. The only way to do this is with a pushrod that is adjustable.This would be similar to an adjustable rocker arm on your V-8.
 
DusTed74 said:
The hydraulic tappets in your Sporster are no different than the ones in a
V-8. They must have the proper pre-load on them to opperate correctly. This is typicly controlled by the push rod length.
In a stock application like you bike is now, the pushrod is a fixed length and is putting the tappet in an average pre-load position. But if you're looking for max performance then you will need to fine tune the adjustment on all 4 tappets. The only way to do this is with a pushrod that is adjustable.This would be similar to an adjustable rocker arm on your V-8.
Click to expand...

ok, i see, is that somthing ill want to get while i put the 1200 kit in or wait till i put in different cams
 
I would put them in when you install your kit. This way when you go to install your cams later, that job will be much easier.
Like I said earlier opt for the ones that can be installed without removing the rocker boxes. This will make a big differance when you do the cam swap. S&S Quikee's or Rivera's Taper Lights are about the best out there.

Ted
 
Stock CV carb or an aftermarket carb?

Harley sells a kit but I think you can get a similar/same/better kit for less than what HD charges.
 
I'm not a big fan of certain "jet kits". Some of them come with a very light spring for the vacuum piston which causes it to react extreemly fast. What that does is cause a rich condition in the low rpm range. There's also a kit out there that gives you a new emulsion tube with only one hole in it in stead of five.Talk about a screwed up signal to the main jet!
I leave all the factory parts in the carb,but re-jet it as needed. Depending on where you live and what mods have been done to the rest of the bike the low speed will be somewhere between a 45 and a 48, and the main will be somewhere between a 175 and 195. One thing that I do modify is to limit the pump shot. That thing puts a ton of fuel in there. Cut it down to about half the travel, and also remove the low speed adjustment plug under the carb so you can trim your idle mixture. That should be at about two and a half turns out as a starting point.Then just adjust it for best idle quality.
The CV carbs are great carbs. H.D. has 44mm and a 51mm version. I think Yamaha offers a 58. That will move some air! I've even built a few dual carb engines with them. They were fun!
 
I guess i'll just keep pluging along on my old 1500 Goldwing till she plumb falls out on me....Damn...I keep forgetting to get that cappucino machine fixed on that thing....Two wheels are good guys.
 
thanson_mopar said:
wow, who sells a 1400cc kit?

and thanks for telling how you built yours and the horepower per mod. hopfully ill be able to squeeze somthing like that out of my sporty
Click to expand...

http://www.cas4.com/sscycle/hot-set-up-sportster-evo.html

You can get into big bucks, after you get into the real big inch kits you have to do crank, rods etc. Then you get into case mods too.


CC to cube calc
http://www.unitconversion.org/volume/ccs-to-cubic-inchs-conversion.html

There are 74, 79 & 89 kits from S&S. I have even seen larger. But then you get into gas tank clearnace issues etc too. and HUGE $$$s!
And as per DusTed74 adjustable chrome moly pushrods are a good idea. I ended up doing them once I did cams. If I was sure I was going to do cams I should have done those when I did the heads maybe the 1st time? But I did them with the 2nd set of heads anyway. You can get it set up to the perfect spec as he outlined.

Lastly here is a great link to basic HP and mod info too. I have many Harley and Sportser books etc.

http://www.sportster.org/tech/basic-perf/stage-list.shtml

I forgot to mention to that I even got rid of the stock 1200 pistons once I did the cams and went with a better set of lower weight forged pistons from Wiseco. You can even bore the 883 barrels and go to 1200, but I did harley 1200 piston and barrels the 1st time, then replaced again. Man I s;ppent or say wasted a lot of money, but it was the part of learning for me.

By bike is similar to the stage 2.5 or stage 3 with a few tweaks. And is still very dependable. They quote lower HP numbers, it is all depends on the dyno too? Maybe the dyno mine was tested on read high? But anyway these are the numbers from stock to when I finished the bike. All at sea level in socal near the beach. Like I said there are other tweaks, intake porting matched to heads etc that have been done. Bike is a monster and a sleeper. Since I have had the bike since 99 I grew out of the late 30 age of still wanted to peg the speedo at 140+ done in the Harley odemetor range past the 120 numers.

Like Rumblefish360 says, I think I too am more into the ride and the pull than the speed, but it is fun to dust a rocker fro m20-90 at times too! :)
 
If you are not looking to get into a large scale performance application that requires lots of parts I would suggest beginning with the 1200 conversion and retaining the 883 heads and cams. I have used both the HD screaming eagle kits and the Wiesco kits. The HD parts are cast pistons and will be slightly quieter but will up your compression ratio and require you to compensate for that in some way. When I worked at the dealership we would machine the stock 883 heads and set cc's to what we felt best suited the customers expectations for performance. This would also allow us to set proper quench and squish areas. If you do not have the capability or do not want to pay for the machine work get the Wiesco dished piston kit. I haven't checked in some time but there are probably others who make quality kits as well. I've used Ross pistons with great luck on past projects.

This might also provide some helpful reading.
http://www.steele.com/dan/faq2.htm#_Toc9307751

I've also built motors using this Bob Johnson's heads.
http://www.johnsonenginetechnology.com/JETPAGES/aboutjet.html
You're gonna pay for the heads but the rest of the motor stays pretty much stock and you don't need to worry about "what works".

Buell heads are the way to go though IMO. Easy, no guess work, and they just plain work. I would not use them on a stock 883/1200 conversion though. I personally feel they are just to large and flow too much for the stock 883 cams and conversion kits compression ratio. Great addition for the future though should you be thinking about continuing to modify the motor.

The last motor I did for myself was an 87 1100 that I bored and installed 1200 pistons in. 1100s were only made in 86 & 87. 1987 used factory sand cast heads which also came with the largest factory installed valves. I welded and ported these heads to a bathtub chamber design similar to what Branch offered. Also raised the intake runners slightly, pocketed the ports and knife edged epoxy runners to the guides. No need to do that kind of work anymore with the current performance parts and head availability. Save yourself the headaches and buy a bolt on kit, that way you can do it yourself without the need for machining. Mine made 113 HP 94 ft lbs of torque and I would destroy any Buell and most pre twin cam big twins that I raced. Great fun beating S&S sidewinder big twins with my "skirt-ster"

There is going to be many different suggestions given to you. Unfortunately most guys tend to over cam and over carb, same guys will tell you drag pipes make more power too. Stop and think about what you are trying to accomplish and what you are willing to modify and purchase in order to make that happen. Start simple and add to it as time and money permit. Lots of good recommendations here for a Mopar site though...LOL.

My lil girly sportster BTW
sportster-01.jpg
 
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