Have to turn key twice to start

[mtldart]

Ive tried searching and nothing seems to match what I have going on here.

its an intermittent issue, no rhyme or reason to it. happens when the car has been sitting for a week, for twenty minutes, hot, cold, can't narrow it down to anything yet.

I get in, turn the key one notch and everything turns on in the car, then when i turn the key to start nothing happens at all. the key goes back and i turn it again and the car starts right up. doesn't happen all the time either. maybe 3 out of 10 times...very inconsistent.

Any trouble shooting ideas?

Because its incredibly inconsistent putting a voltmeter on things when i get into the car may not really be an option because its not often i've got another person to turn the key while im holding the volt meter! its been an intermittent issue since i got the car over a year ago and have cleaned all the grounds over time to make sure that wasn't it.

All new wiring from the firewall back under the dash. I have the wires to bypass the ammeter, but i haven't done it yet....waiting for a solid weekend day of no rain. i work on my car on the street. if doing that will help ill make sure to do it this weekend. it wont take long...the car just came out of winter storage about a month ago and because the car starts on the second turn of the key i havent really considered it urgent, but im sure its just a matter of time before it just doesnt start again.

74 dart sedan with a/c and a 225 slant six (american car, not a canadian one). PO replaced the ignition on the wheel well has prob less than 15,000 miles on it (I have made sure its well grounded there). new battery terminals that are clean and tight. replaced the starter last november. new plugs n wires last summer. new alternator last spring.

 

[RustyRatRod]

I guess ignition switch......possibly stater relay.

 

[67Dart273]

^^Yup^^ I HATE throwing parts at stuff. But in this case might be an option HOWEVER this is a 74, you say. THOSE HAVE THE annoying seat belt interlock which interrupts the start line. I'd start by bypassing that. Look under the hood on the left fender apron area for a box about the size of a horn relay with a reset button. There are two "yellowish" wires which are the start wires going in/ out. Permanently connect those two yellows together

 

[shittyslant6]

If it's intermittent issue, maybe a bad ground?????
I had the same problem, but mine was a key that was broke off in the ignition and I fixed it by getting a new switch and changing the pins around in the cylinder to fit a new key.

 

[mtldart]

I'll double check all my grounds again.
Connect those dumb yellow wires.

Then I'll see if that helps. A new ignition isn't too pricey and I gotta recenter my steering wheel anyways soooooo might as well do that.

I agree about hating throwing parts at it but ignition and starter relay are like thirty bucks and I get to spend some time refreshing old parts so it's not a terrible way to spend a Saturday!!

Also this is my daily so new stuff is never a bad thing.

 

[TrailBeast]

Ive tried searching and nothing seems to match what I have going on here.

its an intermittent issue, no rhyme or reason to it. happens when the car has been sitting for a week, for twenty minutes, hot, cold, can't narrow it down to anything yet.

I get in, turn the key one notch and everything turns on in the car, then when i turn the key to start nothing happens at all. the key goes back and i turn it again and the car starts right up. doesn't happen all the time either. maybe 3 out of 10 times...very inconsistent.

Any trouble shooting ideas?

Because its incredibly inconsistent putting a voltmeter on things when i get into the car may not really be an option because its not often i've got another person to turn the key while im holding the volt meter! its been an intermittent issue since i got the car over a year ago and have cleaned all the grounds over time to make sure that wasn't it.

All new wiring from the firewall back under the dash. I have the wires to bypass the ammeter, but i haven't done it yet....waiting for a solid weekend day of no rain. i work on my car on the street. if doing that will help ill make sure to do it this weekend. it wont take long...the car just came out of winter storage about a month ago and because the car starts on the second turn of the key i havent really considered it urgent, but im sure its just a matter of time before it just doesnt start again.

74 dart sedan with a/c and a 225 slant six (american car, not a canadian one). PO replaced the ignition on the wheel well has prob less than 15,000 miles on it (I have made sure its well grounded there). new battery terminals that are clean and tight. replaced the starter last november. new plugs n wires last summer. new alternator last spring.

Any changes in your dash or interior lights when you turn the key and it doesn’t start?
Also, is this a stick or auto trans?
Autos have a neutral safety switch and heat cycling on those push on type electrical connections can and do cause connection loss.
That’s why I ask about the dash or interior light when you turn the key and it doesn’t start.
Dash and interior lights usually go off with a bad connection.
They flicker then stay on when trying the key if it’s the starter, relay or NSS. (Generally)

 

[67Dart273]

I assume you do not hear the starter relay click when you turn the key?

THINK about "the path" this takes.

Obviously the ignition switch has power TO it otherwise nothing else will work. There is only one power feed into the switch

The circuit path:
Ignition switch in start..........out of the ignition switch on yellow "start" to and through the ignition switch connector.............to and through the bulkhead connector.........to and through the seat belt interrupt shown above...........and to one flag terminal on the starter relay.......this is the coil/ electromagnet..........throw the relay coil and out on the remaining flag terminal..........down the firewall to the center of the neutral safety switch which is supposed to be "ground" when in park or neutral

EVERY SINGLE ONE of those components and terminal connections is a suspect. The relay itself is a suspect.

 

[mtldart]

Any changes in your dash or interior lights when you turn the key and it doesn’t start?

Ya know im not sure. I have a bluetooth radio connected to it that i always connect as the car warms up so ill do that before i start it next time to see if the whole car loses power. I know the light for the brake or oil pressure comes on initially (just cant remember off the top of my head) then it turns off when i try to start and doesn't come back on. I'll see if i lose all the lights when it happens next time.

I assume you do not hear the starter relay click when you turn the key?

THINK about "the path" this takes.

Obviously the ignition switch has power TO it otherwise nothing else will work. There is only one power feed into the switch

The circuit path:
Ignition switch in start..........out of the ignition switch on yellow "start" to and through the ignition switch connector.............to and through the bulkhead connector.........to and through the seat belt interrupt shown above...........and to one flag terminal on the starter relay.......this is the coil/ electromagnet..........throw the relay coil and out on the remaining flag terminal..........down the firewall to the center of the neutral safety switch which is supposed to be "ground" when in park or neutral

EVERY SINGLE ONE of those components and terminal connections is a suspect. The relay itself is a suspect.

thanks for this very simple break down. makes it very easy for me to trouble shoot each spot to narrow it down without having to trace it by hand or using the wiring diagram.

I'll likely start with the starter relay, and connecting those two seat belt interrupter wires. both are very quick and easy fixes to try to narrow down the rest.

 

[TrailBeast]

Ya know im not sure. I have a bluetooth radio connected to it that i always connect as the car warms up so ill do that before i start it next time to see if the whole car loses power. I know the light for the brake or oil pressure comes on initially (just cant remember off the top of my head) then it turns off when i try to start and doesn't come back on. I'll see if i lose all the lights when it happens next time.



thanks for this very simple break down. makes it very easy for me to trouble shoot each spot to narrow it down without having to trace it by hand or using the wiring diagram.

I'll likely start with the starter relay, and connecting those two seat belt interrupter wires. both are very quick and easy fixes to try to narrow down the rest.

Looks like Del had some of the same thoughts.
I might have added to my post while you were answering.

 

[Mike69cuda]

One of my favorite things to do for something like this is to wire up little light bulbs to places along the circuit. I have a little box with 3 or 4 LEDs in it. It is an old hidden spare key box with a magnet on it. I stick it to the bottom of the dash. When I was having ignition trouble, I hooked one to the coil, one to each side of the ballast using some speaker wire. Then I could watch the bulbs and see where the fault was.

 

[mtldart]

One of my favorite things to do for something like this is to wire up little light bulbs to places along the circuit. I have a little box with 3 or 4 LEDs in it. It is an old hidden spare key box with a magnet on it. I stick it to the bottom of the dash. When I was having ignition trouble, I hooked one to the coil, one to each side of the ballast using some speaker wire. Then I could watch the bulbs and see where the fault was.

damn this is genius. i actually have a dozen little LED's from various projects floating around my tool box.
good idea!

 

[mtldart]

i just got off the phone with the parts store down the street and they will have a starter relay for me in a couple hours so at the very least I can swap that out before the next three days of rain. My soldering iron is at my shop space (only fits my motorcycles, but also has most of my tools in there) so i won't be able to properly connect those two yellow wires til the weekend, but I also likely won't be driving til saturday anyways....probably to go get my soldering iron lol

thanks a lot for all these ideas. this should def give me a week or two worth of things to check.

 

[67Dart273]

One of my favorite things to do for something like this is to wire up little light bulbs to places along the circuit. I have a little box with 3 or 4 LEDs in it. It is an old hidden spare key box with a magnet on it. I stick it to the bottom of the dash. When I was having ignition trouble, I hooked one to the coil, one to each side of the ballast using some speaker wire. Then I could watch the bulbs and see where the fault was.

I ALMOST SUGGESTED THIS!!!

 

[Mike69cuda]

I ALMOST SUGGESTED THIS!!!

Yep, I grew up a poor boy. Didn’t have any nice meters. We would trouble shoot cars and stereos with light bulbs and transistor radio earphones.

Bought me one of those nice power probes awhile back and have not used it yet. Old habits die hard...