moparman96
Member
Where can I find a good set of high intensity discharge lights for my 74 duster? My stock headlights are pitiful, and im going the restomod route anyway.
thanks
Travis
thanks
Travis
headlights
- Thread starter moparman96
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1968FormulaS340
Well-Known Member
You need slantsixdan. Do a search for his posts about lights.
Scampin around
Well-Known Member
Super Scamps thread said he was using jeep headlights and they bolt right in.
slantsixdan
=..=
Be real careful and please see this post. Although they are widely available, "HID kits" in halogen-bulb headlamps (any kit, any headlamp, any vehicle) do not work safely or effectively, which is why they are illegal. See detailed explanation here. Almost all the HID setups sold in the sealed-beam formats are exactly that: an "HID kit" and a halogen (usually H4) headlamp lens/reflector.
Good, effective, safe headlight performance is not just a matter of how much light you can spray out in front of the car. The right amount of light has got to go where it's needed, and light has got to be tightly controlled in areas where too much of it will spoil your safety (or blind other drivers, which eventually amounts to the same thing).
There are two (and only two) HID headlamps in the 7" round format that are effective, good, safe, and legal. They are the XE7 and the XE7R from ValeoSylvania. The XE7 is the better performer, but it's also fugly-lookin'. Both will require the central hole in the headlight bucket to be enlarged.
There is one (and only one) LED headlamp in the 7" round format that is effective, good, safe, and legal. It is the Speaker #8700. Finned aluminum housing, glass lens, advanced optics.
For either of those two options, good HID or good LED, you're looking at around $450 to $500 apiece (times two per car). Is it worth it? That's for the guy with his name on the credit card to decide. You do not have to spend big bucks to have objectively good headlighting.
Bad headlighting sucks, whether it's crummy sealed beams, cheap-and-nasty H4s, also-ran LED units or halfaѕѕed HIDs…and the "catch" is that the human visual system is a lousy judge of its own performance; it's very easy to create situations where we think/feel we can see way better or worse than we actually can. That's why a lot of guys with bad lights go around talking about how great their lights are. They aren't telling lies, it's just that they aren't seeing what they think they're seeing, because they're human beings.
If what you really meant to ask was "How do I get really good headlights on my A-body?", then see here. Put in Cibie H4s if you want excellent headlamps (but they're costly), or put in GE Night Hawk H6024NH sealed beams from www.amazon.com (search H6024NH) if you want decent and cheap but not very long lived. Don't get Sylvania, Wagner, or other junk. Whatever lights you put in, make sure they're fed by relays, and you can also upgrade the car's other exterior lights (see here).
The Jeep JK Wrangler ('07+) items are pretty to look at, but optically they're poorly focused.
For more detailed headlamp info, see here and here and here.[/QUOTE]
Good, effective, safe headlight performance is not just a matter of how much light you can spray out in front of the car. The right amount of light has got to go where it's needed, and light has got to be tightly controlled in areas where too much of it will spoil your safety (or blind other drivers, which eventually amounts to the same thing).
There are two (and only two) HID headlamps in the 7" round format that are effective, good, safe, and legal. They are the XE7 and the XE7R from ValeoSylvania. The XE7 is the better performer, but it's also fugly-lookin'. Both will require the central hole in the headlight bucket to be enlarged.
There is one (and only one) LED headlamp in the 7" round format that is effective, good, safe, and legal. It is the Speaker #8700. Finned aluminum housing, glass lens, advanced optics.
For either of those two options, good HID or good LED, you're looking at around $450 to $500 apiece (times two per car). Is it worth it? That's for the guy with his name on the credit card to decide. You do not have to spend big bucks to have objectively good headlighting.
Bad headlighting sucks, whether it's crummy sealed beams, cheap-and-nasty H4s, also-ran LED units or halfaѕѕed HIDs…and the "catch" is that the human visual system is a lousy judge of its own performance; it's very easy to create situations where we think/feel we can see way better or worse than we actually can. That's why a lot of guys with bad lights go around talking about how great their lights are. They aren't telling lies, it's just that they aren't seeing what they think they're seeing, because they're human beings.
If what you really meant to ask was "How do I get really good headlights on my A-body?", then see here. Put in Cibie H4s if you want excellent headlamps (but they're costly), or put in GE Night Hawk H6024NH sealed beams from www.amazon.com (search H6024NH) if you want decent and cheap but not very long lived. Don't get Sylvania, Wagner, or other junk. Whatever lights you put in, make sure they're fed by relays, and you can also upgrade the car's other exterior lights (see here).
The Jeep JK Wrangler ('07+) items are pretty to look at, but optically they're poorly focused.
For more detailed headlamp info, see here and here and here.[/QUOTE]
super scamp 340
Well-Known Member
1968FormulaS340
Well-Known Member
Slantsixdan is an automotive lighting engineer.
If he says they are poorly focused they most likely are.
The average consumer just doesn't recognize the fact.
If he says they are poorly focused they most likely are.
The average consumer just doesn't recognize the fact.
slantsixdan
=..=
That's pretty much the extent of it; subjective impressions of headlamp performance are not reliable because the human visual system is a lousy judge of its own performance. In plain English, it's really easy to create situations in which we think/feel we can see way better or way worse than we actually can.
The '07-up Wrangler headlamps aren't dangerously bad or anything; they're adequate (and easily available; a lot of Wrangler owners take them off to put on Cibies so they can see better at night!). But (again) they're poorly focused. If what you want is a clear-lens headlamp with a "jewelled" reflector, there's a much better option; see discussion here. If for whatever reason you decide to go with the Jeep lamps, use only genuine Chrysler-made ones. The aftermarket lookalikes are all garbage -- even cheaper and sloppier than the genuine units. Most of the aftermarket lamps don't even come close to meeting DOT specs, but they all claim "DOT/SAE approved" and "OEM quality". :roll:
The '07-up Wrangler headlamps aren't dangerously bad or anything; they're adequate (and easily available; a lot of Wrangler owners take them off to put on Cibies so they can see better at night!). But (again) they're poorly focused. If what you want is a clear-lens headlamp with a "jewelled" reflector, there's a much better option; see discussion here. If for whatever reason you decide to go with the Jeep lamps, use only genuine Chrysler-made ones. The aftermarket lookalikes are all garbage -- even cheaper and sloppier than the genuine units. Most of the aftermarket lamps don't even come close to meeting DOT specs, but they all claim "DOT/SAE approved" and "OEM quality". :roll:
inkjunkie
Well-Known Member
My 07 wrangler work just fine.......... opionion's vary[/QUOTE]"and the "catch" is that the human visual system is a lousy judge of its own performance; it's very easy to create situations where we think/feel we can see way better or worse than we actually can. That's why a lot of guys with bad lights go around talking about how great their lights are. They aren't telling lies, it's just that they aren't seeing what they think they're seeing, because they're human beings.":mrgreen:
fcm42000
Banned
Dan, what lights do you use?
slantsixdan
=..=
My cars tend not to spend a lot of time with any given lighting configuration. At the moment my '73 Dart has a very, very good set of Marchal H4 units (tied for best 7" halogen headlamp ever made, sadly discontinued). Before those, it had a very, very good set of Cibie Z-beams (tied for best 7" halogen headlamp ever made, sadly discontinued). When I'm not running scarce/exotic/no-longer-available or experimental/test lamps, my basic go-to lamp is the Cibie E-code unit.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
Something that has not been really addressed her is "what does the other guy think?"
So if you see ME coming at YOU with my 4537's fired up it means whatever you have for headlights are way too bright, way too poorly aimed, and way too annoying
So if you see ME coming at YOU with my 4537's fired up it means whatever you have for headlights are way too bright, way too poorly aimed, and way too annoying
slantsixdan
=..=
It has been, by reference to detailed info on that subject, but you're right to express it outright like this. A headlamp, especially a low beam, is not just a flood light that sprays a bunch of light "out there somewhere". The goal is not to have just "more light". It has to be focused effectively by the headlamp optic, which has to be aimed correctly, or your headlamps -- whatever they are -- are dangerous and ineffective. Good headlamps aimed properly are less glaring than bad headlamps aimed properly.
Next time you burn out a 4537 (1960 design), replace it with an H7680HIR (late 1990s design).
Well I personally had an 08 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited. I thought the headlights SUCKED from day one. I found out aboud Dan's Cibie conversion and happened to luck up on a kit someone had and ended up not using and got it at a really good discount. I have nothing but good things to say about the conversion. My Jeep was modded pretty heavily and the headlights were the number one mod, hands down. I will be doing the cibie conversion on my Dart and gettin the stuff from Dan this time. Even if I have to do it one piece at a time.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
'S actually been a few years since I had any 4537's. In my day a few of us used them "carefully." I don't know if I will again, but I will CERTAINLY check out those halogen replacements.
I can still remember the CHP, 1972:
"Sir, you have illegal aircraft landing lights installed in place of your high beams. You are going to have to remove them."
This was at a roadside surprise smog check in the daytime. I NEVER got stopped for actually using them.
slantsixdan
=..=
Oops...you made an error. The "improvement" from Sylvania Silver Stars is an optical illusion. Their actual, objective performance is very poor. If you are buying sealed beams, you are much better off for less money with GE Night Hawk H6024NH, about $18 apiece, as linked in many threads on this subject on this board.
Ask questions and get good answers here before spending money. The guy in the store just wants you to buy the most expensive thing he has, whether it's crap or not.
805moparkid
Slant and AFX Guy
well i have to ask and im sure some are wondering dan! how much do you sell, or be able to part together a good kit to retro fit our 60's/70's cars with the relays and wiring and what not? not a bolt in deal but just parts??
thx
slantsixdan
=..=
Parts kit number RIK-2 does one whole vehicle equipped with two sealed beam or H4 headlights. It is $49. It includes all relays, relay brackets, terminal blocks, terminals, plugs, sockets, fuses and fuseholders, and is the parts kit that was used for the Allpar installation article. You supply your own wire and use the parts from the kit to build up your own wiring harness per this article. Parts are all premium-grade items (e.g., Bosch-Tyco dual-output 30/40A relays, ceramic headlamp sockets, etc.) that accept large-gauge wire; this is not the "consumer grade" junk you can find at the parts store. The in-car switches continue working normally, and you will not need to cut or otherwise disturb any of the vehicle's original wires.
805moparkid
Slant and AFX Guy
so with this upgrade what headlights would you still recommend? upgrading to the removable "insert" style covers and bulbs or just stick with the GE's on the sealed beam?
dgc333
Well-Known Member
Just a comment on Cibie (and Carrello too). I have had both brands have the silver coating start to peel off after a couple of years. Didn't take long before they were useless.
moparman96
Member
Well I thank you for all of your advice I just have one last question for dan. Im getting ready to redo the wiring on my 74 duster, what is a good company to go with for a complete new wiring harness for the whole car. I want to replace everything and update. None of my lights are putting out any light output at all. Everything works properly except for the horn going to fix that today. But everything is so dim its just not safe. Now I know that I can ad grounds to all the lights and they will be brighter but I have my doubts that they will be good enough to be safe and legal because right now they are not, which is why I want to rewire the whole car. I know painless but they are ridiculously expensive. Any others brand or manufacturers you know of?
thanks travis
thanks travis
slantsixdan
=..=
Oof. Your options are very limited, and wherever you buy from, any kind of a special car-specific kit or harness is going to be very expensive. If you're willing to put in the time and effort to do it all yourself from bulk materials (wire, terminals, terminal housings, etc.) the cost will be much less, but either way, rewiring a car takes time, thought, effort, and time. I would not buy (anything) from Painless.
I think as a first step I'd go through and take apart each and every unpluggable connection and remove the bulb from each socket, one at a time, clean and treat the terminals, and reassemble. Cheap contact cleaners are useless; good ones are costly. Clean with Blue Shower or DeOxit; treat with Stabilant-22a.
slantsixdan
=..=
It depends on how well you want to see and how much you have to spend. If your budget is tight, do not get cheap replaceable-bulb headlights; the cheapies are junk. Get the GE H6024NH Night Hawk sealed beams. If you have money to spend and/or have a strong need to see really well at night, get good replaceable-bulb headlamps. Cibies are the best ones currently in production and commonly available; there are some others that are at least as good as Cibie but are (much) harder to get and/or (much) more expensive, and there are others that are easier to get but are (much) poorer.
dgc333 said:
There's nothing such as a permanent headlamp. Even "sealed" beams eventually deteriorate to the point where the seal lets go and water gets in and eats up the reflector. Sometimes the bulb inside doesn't burn out before this happens; we've probably all seen cars with a "black eye" headlamp that is no longer bright and shiny when off; that's what's going on.
Compared to a sealed beam, a non-sealed (replaceable-bulb) headlamp is intrinsically more prone to water and dirt entry if it is not manufactured, installed, and maintained correctly. Manufacturing is the first step; there's a protective coating applied to the vapor-deposited aluminum shiny stuff that makes the reflector. If this coating isn't correctly selected or applied, it'll degrade and the aluminum will quickly oxidize. For that matter, it's not just the overcoat that has to be right; the undercoat (between the shiny stuff and the stamped steel reflector) also has to be correctly selected and applied, or it'll peel. Today's reputable-brand lamps are far superior to yesterday's in these regards; much better under- and overcoat materials and techniques are being used (and the regulations and tests for reflector durability have also gotten stricter).
But even if the lamp is well made, there are a lot of ways it can be screwed up. There's a cup-shaped rubber seal boot on the back of the lamp. It pushes over the installed bulb so the shank of the bulb and its terminals protrude rearward through the back of the boot, then the mouth of the cup forms a seal with the back surface of the reflector. At the bottom of the boot is a vent/drain. Most of these boots are marked "TOP" so you know which way is up. It's all pretty simple, but I have seen all kinds of improper installation of the boot. Upside down, or the installer attempts to have the socket inside the boot, or the boot isn't contacting the reflector, or it's inside-out. Sometimes the problem isn't the installer's fault; if the hole in the headlight bucket is too small, it may contact the boot when the lamp is installed, pushing the boot out of position and leaving a gap between boot and reflector for water to get in. Some installers get the idea in mind that it's a good idea (it's not) to try and seal the boot to the reflector with silicone or some other goop. No, a nonsealed headlamp has to be able to breathe, and most of the goops available will attack the reflector overcoat chemically. Also, running very high wattage bulbs puts more of a heat load on the reflector, shortening its lifespan.
moparman96
Member
I would not buy (anything) from Painless.
Why is that?
Why is that?
slantsixdan
=..=
The value isn't there. I've been watching them take money (quality) out of their stuff for a decade or so. It was priced way up high when I first became aware of their stuff, and their prices have only increased.
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