Help determine distributer plug + & -

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71swing

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Hooked up my Crane HI-6 ignition box last night. By passed the ballaster and hooked up according to instrustion and insight from this site as well. Mopar ignition box removed as well now.

My question is 2 of the wire from the box now go the the dizzy plug which I retained and spiced into before the plug itself to keep the mopar plug. My instrustion tell me to connect the boxes + (voilet) to the dizzy's + (orange) and the neg. to neg. But the wires on my dizzy are not orange and black. They are blueish and greyish. Can anyone help me determine which is the positive before trying to start.

I currently have the boxes positive connected to the light of the 2 wires coming out of the dizzy assuming its the positive, but I'm not sure what would be the consequence of having it hooked up backwards and trying to start it that way.

Thanks
 
Easy if you have not moved or removed the distributor. TRY it one way with the wires temporarily clipped in place. If the engine won't start or run, or runs ragged, reverse the two connections

Also, you should be able to go by the male/ female of your distributor In the photo, notice that the ORANGE wire of this pickup goes to the MALE (exposed) terminal of the connector. You should be able to "match up" yours the same way

$%28KGrHqV,!iUE1NPYvwFBBNeU%29ecO7!~~_35.JPG



What reversing them does is to move the timing so that the rotor is no longer in sync with the time at which the spark fires.

This is known as "rotor phasing" and if you Google it you'll get lots of info.

https://www.google.com/search?num=4...A&biw=1252&bih=611&sei=0yWXUeukEIrNiwKPp4CAAw
 
67Dart273 said:
Also, you should be able to go by the male/ female of your distributor In the photo, notice that the ORANGE wire of this pickup goes to the MALE (exposed) terminal of the connector. You should be able to "match up" yours the same way

$%28KGrHqV,!iUE1NPYvwFBBNeU%29ecO7!~~_35.JPG
Click to expand...
I’m pretty sure I have it hooked up right then. I’m will have to check it out come morning after work. Looking at other pictures I Googled that was also the best assumption I could come up with, I believe the lighter of the 2 I was guessing was the positive also had the male exposed end of the plug.

Thanks.
 
Now I'm really confused. Looks like I got more work to do. I was hoping to make the maiden voyage today but it's not adding up. So I get home try to start it up. It fires right up. I had set the timing the other day on it initial fire up before I added the ignition box. Now that it is running I rechecked timing and it was high at idle. Like 50* trying to turn it down the car would start to shake and stall. So I tried reversing the dizzy plug. It fired right up. Very confusing because my first thought was it sounded even better than the other way. it may not have that's just the thought to enter my head. Checked the timing this way and it puts me 90* on the balancer. Very confused. When I was assembling the engine I verified the balancer was correct to top dead center. I thought I stabbed the dizzy shaft at the right angle to get me at #1 cylinder.

Any thoughts on this. I've been up for nearly 24 hrs and have to work again tonight so my brain is fried. I may just need to find TDC again the verify, which is a pain because I don't have enough clearance to get a wrench on the crank bolt without removing the electric fan setup I have which was installed on the radiator out of the car and may not be easy to get off with it in the car.

FML!
 
You may have to take an old cap and saw into it so you can see the no1 plug tower. Click the link I posted (which is just a search) and you'll see lots of ways to do that. Just point your timing light at the hole, and hook up the wiring so the rotor is aligned with the cap tower.

Also, make sure the reluctor has been installed correctly. There's two slots at opposite sides of the reluctor, at least one of which is marked with an arrow to indicate distributor rotation (ccw for BB, CW for small block) The reluctor pin must be in the slot corresponding to proper rotation.

The pin in this photo is in the CCW slot, for a big block. You want the slot on the opposite side

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View attachment 976603_645654955447836_987004_o.jpg

I checked the rotation according to your picture and it is fine, I also have a sharpie mark on the lower half of the distributer to tell me were #1 is with the cap off. But Im not sure if your grasping what Im saying. The distributer is not new its been on the car for nearly 5 years.

Back story car had a 340 in it before spun a bearing and bent some rods. fast forward to now I have bored and stroked to a 408 reused everything from the 340 besides the cam which is a new Comp cam. I got it all back together and fired it up to break in the cam. Car fired right up seem to run fine for the 30 min. shut it down. Changed the oil and installed helper springs which were never installed for the cam break in.

Nest day fired it back up, started right up. Once it warmed I adjusted the full timing to 38*. I have always adjusted it at full timing never check the inital this time around. Put the car away because I wanted to check valve lash after the fire up. adjusted the valves, and got to work installing the ignition box. Which is pretty sraight forward and easy but I did have the inital question about the distributer positive and negative.

started the car this morning. It fired right up. Sounded good. Checked the timing to see what my inital was since I never checked it before. The light was giving me 50* at idle. Confused that it would even start, let alone sound good? tried to back it down but I couldnt get it below 30* and it would start to stall. So I thought maybe the + & - were switched around. So I shut it off switched them and started it back up. It fired right up. I even thought to myself right away that was the problem because I thought it sounded even better than before. So I get out and check the timing. To my surprise the light is now giving me 90* on the balancer. How in the hell? I am really confused. I may have to just start with the basics and relocate TDC and make sure it lines up with my timing marks and rotor. Which I thought at this point could not be wrong because I checked them a dozen times while assembling the top half of the motor. I know the timing marks are correct. I degreed my cam nearly 30 different times to make sure it was right time after time.
 
Without knowing what the curve is in the distributor, or even if the mechanical advance is working right, it's hard to say

The thing is, you only have two ways to go

ONE of them is going to firing the spark at such a point that the rotor is misaligned in the cap---the spark will have to jump to the plug tower, and it MAY crossfire. Normally this causes rough running or worse

All I can say is if you cannot resolve it by how the engine runs, then you'll have to take an old cap and check rotor phasing.

At this point, I would be tempted to check for timing marks accuracy. You need to do that with a piston stop
 
I will start tomorrow with the basics. On the way home from work I'll swing by the parts store and pick up a new cap and rotor which I intended to replace later anyway. Then I also work on checking timing marks at TDC. Im 100% sure they are right but I will quad triple check. I dont run the stock style balancer so I dont think slippage it possible. I have a pretty exspensive SFI balancer.
dsc06073m.jpg
 
I would like to point out while trying to lossen the distributer bolt to adjust the timing, I made the mistake of getting my distributer wrench to close to the positive side of the coil. Nealry knocked me on my *** and made me drop the wrench to where it wedged down between the tranny and the tranny tunnel. ](*,)
 
Here are checks for pickup polarity: Check timing at idle, then set the crank to that position for #1, observe the reluctor tooth to pickup pole. The correct position is reluctor tooth, close to pole. See 67dart273 photo, your photo shows incorrect polarity. Once the polarity is corrected, you need to readjust timing, and check that #1 is at correct cap rotation. Static timing is the best way to start, if does not easily start, then something is wrong. With incorrect polarity, the ignition is happening between, teeth and between cap terminals...That is why timing set to near 50 lets it kinda run.
 
KitCarlson said:
Here are checks for pickup polarity: Check timing at idle, then set the crank to that position for #1, observe the reluctor tooth to pickup pole. The correct position is reluctor tooth, close to pole. See 67dart273 photo, your photo shows incorrect polarity. Once the polarity is corrected, you need to readjust timing, and check that #1 is at correct cap rotation. Static timing is the best way to start, if does not easily start, then something is wrong. With incorrect polarity, the ignition is happening between, teeth and between cap terminals...That is why timing set to near 50 lets it kinda run.
Click to expand...

Im sorry but I read this about 5 times and none of it made sense to me.:confused: Can you dumb it down for me?
 
I will try. Look at 67dart273 distributor picture. If the crank position is about 12 degrees BTDC all is good. Observe the reluctor tooth, and the metal pole at the center of pickup coil. On 67dart273, the location is at the trailing edge of tooth. That is the point of ignition. It is also necessary to view the location of the rotor and it should line up with #1 plug wire.

If you find that the reluctor is near the center in between teeth, as in your picture, the polarity is incorrect, the wiring needs to swap, and timing adjustment made to look like 67dart273 picture. Hope this helps.
 
Let me clarify that picture was only taken to show and verify the rotation was correct. The location of the rotor was not at any givin plug. That's just the state where it sits when I shut it off. In my picture #1 would be somewhere in the 5-6 o'clock range. I didn't not get to it today. I will work on it tomorrow. I had a few other things to finish up before trying to fire it back up. I'll let you guys know what I find.
 
Your picture well represents what incorrect reluctor phase would look like on a tooth basis. The rotor may not be in the correct position, just trying to help you understand where the correct point of ignition is on reluctor/pickup.

Here are some pictures of scope waveforms, the top correct, the bottom incorrect phase shown by changing picture with paint. Results may vary depending on level threshold of detection that happens after the signal goes negative, then positive. By this the error of the timing may vary 10's or more degrees based on Crane, OEM box, HEI or MSD interfaces.

A scope would easily resolve your issue, the negative swing should be followed by a quick transition to positive, note the bottom trace shows a negative followed by positive only after a long delay related to the space between the teeth. While an engine might run, it will not run well, for many reasons.
 

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Ok well tomorrow I will try and go through this write up I found through 67DART273's link search above. http://street2mud.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=95 It seems like a pretty detailed write up with lots of pictures. I'm more of a picture book kind of guy. LOL Any how I will report back on that.

As I sit at work and it dwells on my brain, am I just over thinking it and complicating it? Shouldn't it be as easy as marking the distributor base of the location on a plug terminal, then lining up the reluctor and pickup and see what the relationship of the rotor tips is to the mark made for the terminal location? Wouldn't you want it dead nuts lined up at both points at the same time or do you really need to see the relation of the rotor tip advanced and under vaccumn to the terminal to find the middle location?
 
That article is as good as any. A timing light will immediately tell the story. I actually tried to make a video today and capture some still shots, and failed miserably.
 
Basically you are on the right track in thinking about how to static time the engine. Set the crank pulley at about 12 deg BTDC, or where you want timing to be at idle. Then set the distributor to where the tooth when the rotor points to #1, is lined up with the pole on the pickup coil. Consult Del's picture. That will get you within 2 to 3 degrees. If the engine starts and runs good then time, but you will not need to deviate much. If the engine was hard to start, or idles way high in an unstable way the polarity is off. So then swap the connections. If it then starts, set timing.

Earlier you suggested timing at 90 degrees, possibly one plug off in firing order, I doubt an engine will run with ignition that far off. Or you are using a dial-back light there is a problem with it, or cylinder setting.

There should be no need to worry about rotor phasing in article, it would be better in your case to get a better distributor.

Not sure how to help you more
 
No dial back light. Straight up and its no cheap one either. Had it for years has never let me down in the passed. The car did show 90* out on the balancer when I reversed the polarity of the distributer wiring. It threw me off as well. I didnt understand why it was running for one, and it ran well at that. It sounded better than the 50* with the other polarity. They both threw me off. especially since I had the timing set the day before at 38* total @ 3000rpm before the install of the ignition box. Now they are suddenly doubled in timing and thats only at idle not the 3000rpms im comparing it too.

I cant wait to get this thing fired up and going tomorrow.
 
Did you ever check the timing marks? You running early or late timing tabs?

(Early is pass side, late is driver side)
 
Well I didn't get to fire her up today. Had to get caught up on some sleep. But I did check timing marks (late model driverside) TDC is good and the dizzy lined up on #1 I was sure it was because I was anal about it going in during assembly. While I had it at TDC I varified that the rotor aligned with #1 terminal and the pickup and reluctor at the same time. Ran through everything in my head to be sure shes ready for tomorrow.
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I also spent some time isolating some wires for the ignition box that are not used in case of possible cross feed. I isolated a white wire that was inside the same wire sleeve as the switched ignition power wire that was used on my mustang setup this box came off of. I also singled out the wire that you would use to select the proper amount of cylinder for your setup, just incase it was getting power or grounded that would change the cylinder selection for the box.
 
Your distributor is lined up correctly, if the crank is set for #1 at the desired idle timing. Next is to check with timing light while cranking. If it blinks where desired all is well, else if it blinks about 30 to 50 degree off, then switch pickup wires, then test again.

Just saw your post on wiring changes, that may help.
 
It is possible that The outer ring is slipping on your damper causing the eratic readings. just a thought.
 
Fired up today. Of course it wouldn't start at 0* timing. So I had to **** the distributer. Started right up. Checked the timing, to my liking it showed 10*. Pulled the vacumm from the dizzy and set to 15*. sounded better. Once It got to temp. I set the total timing to 36*. Took it for its maiden voyage. Didn't go far from home but it ran good for its first trip. I did die on me once when I was trying to reverse out of a spot. It dawned on me I never plugged the vacumm advance back in, so I fix that. I'm also not sure what the rpm are at idle right now because my tach isn't working. I'll just need to trace that down. Not a big deal.

Im not sure what was the fix. All I really did was go through everything and double check to make sure it was were it should be. The only changes I made was a new dizzy cap, and the 2 wires I isolated on the ignition box wiring. So maybe something there was happening. Anyway it seems to be solved.

Thank you all with the help with my timing issue, and the ideas to my problem. I have learned a little over these few days about timing.
 
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