Help needed with sb 318

[H Monster]

Owner and I only talked briefly......so didn't get a chance to pop the hood.What this is is a truck parked on the side of the road, with a couple similar trucks and old farm equipment. Have driven by it for years, but wasn't looking for a D600, so never paid it any mind. Seller doesn't have it for sale, but would sell it.

If it's a 361, should be similar to engine in this truck.......which is different configuration than the 318 I am using now.

1974 Dodge D600 Grain Truck

Would not be interested if this isn't an easy replacement for the 318, with few if any mods to make it work. Would think it should be as it was an upgrade option for the same truck.

One more thing I found out by running the monster is the use / abuse makes it a poor candidate for an engine that runs hot. At the barn when unloading, has to run at a fast idle for 30 to 45 min at a time. Heard of one guy that tried to replace 318 with a GM big block 454.......and it always ran too hot to work.

 

[Garrett Ellison]

The 318 is probably the best possible engine for the beast then.

 

[abdywgn]

sell the grain box,and an overdrive and make a vintage race car hauler.

 

[Garrett Ellison]

Those are some really cool trucks. AFIK, D500 through D700 use the same cabs as the regular pickups but have different components like the side skirts with steps around the bottom to adapt them to the heavy truck frames. A lot of different possibilities there.

 

[H Monster]

Me again Margaret.

Time for an update. Beast has pretty much been running without incident until this year. First day in use......ran....but something was not right.....had no torque and would not pull a load. She eventually died.....and would not start. Ran battery down trying. Then more issues piled up. Awkward as we had 400 bales on the ground.

Next day we went looking for source of trouble. What we quickly found out was clips on distributor cap were not clipped down. It was just floating on distributor loose. How clips came undone and why it ran at all both beyond me. But clipped it down and back to normal. Except now the alternator is not charging. That comes off and goes in for test and maybe replacement.

But all that is not why I'm back. The entire time I've had her and been running her, if she dies when hot, she will not start again until engine cools down. I sense vapor lock. To prevent a hard (or no) hot start, I have read where the Carter BBD has some type of vapor vent that has to be "to specification", whatever that is. The service manual I've read does not say how. Or if it does, I've not found it.

Is this vapor vent problem an easy adjustment on an early 70s era Carter BBD? If so, how?

 

[Garrett Ellison]

Vapor vent should valve should be open at idle and closed as soon as throttle starts opening. Putting a later return type filter with a return fuel line back to the tank may help, too.

 

[H Monster]

On my vapor lock when hot issue........another clue:

What is Carburetor Percolation? - Mikes Carburetor Parts

I note that when I took over stewardship, she had a huge 75 gallon fuel tank. The original. That had an electric fuel pump running to the mechanical fuel pump on the engine. I assumed it was to pull and move fuel from that huge tank. That was deleted when I replaced the large tank with a 20 gallon fuel cell. There is no return to the tank.

It also had (and still does have) insulation wrapped around fuel hose from pump to the carb. So looks like I'm not the first one to go down this road. Note the radiator is not at the engine. It is close to 8 to 10 feet away up on the deck, up away from all the hay chaff that floats in the air during operation. The engine has no fan running on it. It is in open air, but no fan offering any cooling help at all. Fan for remote radiator is run off hydraulic motor. It moves a huge volume of air, but none of that makes it to the engine. May check to see if it's possible to mount a fan on engine, even tho there is no radiator. And by default it does run in a hot environment. You make hay when the sun shines. The other day that meant doing on a day when temps peaked at 98*F.

 

[H Monster]

So electrical system was not charging, but battery checked out OK and took a charge. Alternator has checked out OK and putting out 14.7 volts on the bench, so also OK. Either have a bad voltmeter or have a fault in wiring somewhere, which can be found.

But what we have here is a not to spec Delco alternator on homemade bracket. As I understand it, these GM alternators have internal regulator. There does not appear to be a stand alone voltage regulator on the beast. Talked to my resident Dodge guy and he tells me swapping to a Delco for the internal voltage regulator is the way to go. Is that true? If so, what model alternator (with internal regulator) would guys recommend that fits the stock 318 alternator mounting brackets? Auto parts store no help. Once you leave land of "to spec", they are done.

 

[H Monster]

I also checked the insulation on the fuel line where it passes by the exhaust manifold and it was poorly installed to begin with and what there was left of it was is toast. Is there a recommended product to use? There are dozens of options on Amazon.

 

[H Monster]

Alternator back in. Found my charging problem. When beast first arrived, we had a small short in the system, which over time would bleed the battery down when parked. Solved that problem with a 30 amp relay switch that cuts the charging circuit when the ignition was shut off. Apparently that was fried. When I bypassed the relay, voltmeter went to 14+ volts and was charging. That will be an easy fix.

But now for that alternator. It is a 60 amp Delco one wire alternator in a very big frame. Whoever installed it also fabricated a two piece mount. One side on the engine block.......the other belt tension side to the chasis. As mounted so the fan belt pulley will line up right, the back side rubs on the valve cover. Bottom line........I want to get this ironed out right.

Since this is a one wire system........am now looking for a Delco alternator in 60 am range that will mount up without modification into the stock Mopar mounting brackets. I have no clue what model that would be and no salvage yard or auto parts store guy is going to know either. The reason for going Delco is it appears to be a sealed unit. May survive the dust and dirt better than one with open windings.

So anybody know what model Delco I'm looking for? Or what vehicle it may come off?

 

[H Monster]

Guys.......there are changes pending to this engine.......changes to the one wire alternator as outlined on a different thread. BUT.......that is not why I am here. Now looking for more advice.

Since I've had this rig, have been concerned about the engine.......and more to the point........all the mismatched components and how it is setup. At best, we can say it runs......and runs OK. Long story short, changes are needed......but not sure if I want to do an engine swap, or stick with this one and clean it up.

So as I see it, this is not the original engine. We believe this to be a generic 1983 crate engine. It came with an unknown model Carter 2 bbl, timing cover with 1986 date stamp, pre 69 cast iron water pump, poorly grafted on AC delco alternator, distributor mounted backwards with plug wires to match. There is a whole lot of other stuff that is unknown, such as what cam shaft might be in it, hours on it (related to mileage), etc.

Since the operation of this thing is low speed, generally low rpm' (below 2,500 99% of the time), needs HIGH low end torque, it occurs to me the best option is modify a 318 engine taylored to this use. Right cam, carb, manifold, alternator, etc. So question is would it be best to start with a different engine or stick with this one........and build it back to fit? Good news is this engine doesn't burn or leak oil, so main guts of it may be strong.

Pulling the engine would be a good news/bad news scenario. Good news is it is very simple mount and easy to get to. Bad news is it has to come out the bottom and there isn't any room. Frame would have to be jacked up and put on sleepers......or as previous owner told me, he dug a hole below it then had to devise a crane to lower it.

Thoughts?

 

[H Monster]

BTW, I might also mention that while I own a pretty good set of wrenches, I don't turn them as either a trade or hobby. I recently assisted with the overhaul of a gas tractor engine......so have a pretty good working knowledge of what goes on in there, but doing the work myself is out of my league. I'd need an assist and so far have not found anybody interested in helping.

 

[H Monster]

One option for a replacement engine would come in the form of a 1970's Dodge D600 truck, which can be bought at farm auctions for not much money. $500 if not running or rough..........up to maybe $2,000 for a really nice one. Pull the engine and some related bits and part the rest out. Generally these have somewhere around 50,000 to 80,000 miles showing. Like this rig, most got heavy seasonal use, then sat in a barn the rest of the year. But use that as donor engine and go to town on it. Since it was already a farm truck, the internals may already be setup for this use vs. a car or pickup engine?

 

[H Monster]

On the farm truck options.......this is what is possible.........

1975 DODGE D600 Auction Result Tobias, Nebraska

Sold one year ago for $1,500.......about 40,000 actual miles......clean and straight. Sticker shows a 318-3 engine, which may mean industrial and all the goodies I'd want to go with it. It's all there and probably nothing I'd have to do except clean it up.

Edited: When going thru photos, when they get to the engine.........things are different from expected. That does not look like the same water pump used on 70's cars and trucks. What is that line running from top of water pump back to the carb or area below the air filter? Part of choke system maybe?

Downside is......nothing wrong with the truck and it runs. Almost criminal to hack it up.

Also........didn't realize I'd plowed this ground before. Been messing with same problems all this time? Really is time to get this ironed out.

 

[H Monster]

Some progress. Posted this on the wiring forum, but here too.

In order to install a new alternator, had to first remove the key bolt used to mount the brackets, which was broken. Eventually had to destroy timing cover to get to the bolt, but to remove the cover, had to remove all the PTO stuff on the crankshaft. Just kept digging and finally reached rock bottom........I hope.

I'm thinking I ought to replace timing gear and chain before putting it all back together? I think I can get all that, plus new timing cover, at NAPA. Or is there a better alternative?

 

[abdywgn]

Chain is inexpensive insurance. soak it first.

 

[Dartswinger70]

Core plugs rust out from the inside...be aware one may leak then another then another etc. also looks like a big pan on an incline is 5 qts dont show up dump in a 6th check again etc.

 

[H Monster]

BTW, did get a chance to visit salvage yard. May have an engine donor in form of old fire truck. At first I thought it might be this thing.........

I only menting it as that appears to be a 70's era Power Wagon duelly along lines of an M88X rig. Still has the 318 small block, 4 speed standard transmission, 4WD. Bristling with extra electronics in the cab and under the hood. Hand throttle, PTO. Odometer shows 8900 miles and he thinks those are actual miles. So like new!

Shot me a price of $7,500 as is. Not a donor of anything for me as it's too good to dissect. Maybe a candidate for something for you?

FWIW.

 

[H Monster]

On the plugs and such, when I recently went to work on the timing cover, I noticed this stain......and what appeared to be a coolant leak.......past the timing cover gasket. Adjacent to the stain, the cover looked to be flaking away too. That alone made me suspect about the cover and not all that troubled by beating it to death to get it off. The frozen bolt sealed the deal.

When it came to me, several of the freeze plugs were corroded and leaking so all have been replaced (by me). Probably less than 100 hours on machine since, so may be OK. I use pre-mixed coolant with corrosion inhibitors. Still, peaks inside look pretty rough.

 

[Garrett Ellison]

Appreciate the link to the fire truck, there are some good heavy duty pieces on that rig for someone to build a serious utility truck from. That is probably the best used 1977 grille assembly I have ever seen to be out in the wild. It's not an 88X but a full ton or 1-1/4 ton dually. I would go ahead and replace any freeze plugs you haven't got to yet. Also, out of morbid curiosity, there are some numbers visible just below the left front cylinder head stamped on the front of the block. Do you care to wire brush those and give us a picture? It's also a good idea while your this far in it to pull the pan, clean it out, and change the gaskets while you're this far into it.

 

[H Monster]

OK, I went looking and even knowing what to look for had trouble finding those numbers. May be my first rodeo but not first for some of you.

I make them out to be.........02280040 16359

 

[H Monster]

From what little i know about those numbers, I assume they are not typical and shed little light on history of the engine?

 

[Garrett Ellison]

Yes, there are usually some numbers in front of the 10,000 day callender sequence numbers stating year of manufacture, cubic inch displacement, fuel type, and engine plant. Industrial engines usually have a -1, -2, or -3 number after the displacement. The 318-3 forged crankshaft is recommended by Direct Connection / Mopar Performance over the stock forged 340 cranks, and the -3 318 blocks I have seen have thicker than average cylinder walls, too.

 

[H Monster]

Plot thickens. Was looking at distributor to verify it was in fact in backwards. Not so. It has vacuum advance on right side where it should be, but found plug wires were 180 degrees out of whack. Number 1 position on distributor cap runs to #6 cylinder. #6 D to #1 C..........#8 D to #5 C. and so forth. Guy wrenching on this in the past either rode the short bus to school or was a certifiable genius.

So it would appear as long as you get the firing order right, does not really matter where you start? Would only matter if you want a timing light to connected to #1 plug wire to fire at #1 TDC. But since I don't have a harmonic balancer, and since the big pulley has no timing mark on it, I have no way to set timing.

Also interesting that in addition to an 86 date stamped timing cover with usual timing marks on it, also found what I suspect was the old style timing bracket mounted under timing cover bolt on low right side. About 180 degrees opposite of the newer style. So maybe different way or position to set timing......but still no timing mark to work from on either side.

On other hand, from a theory standpoint, perhaps it does not matter where #1 plug wire originates from on distributor cap? A timing light connected to that wire would still fire when #1 cylinder is at TDC?

But aside from all that, to get to some timing marks, thinking I should..........

1. Re-position plug wires to normal. #1 to #1, etc.
2. Find #1 TDC by usual methods
3. With #1 cylinder at TDC make some timing mark at 0 on the big pulley to line up with timing cover timing marks.

Can paint the pulley black or some dark color, then nail polish or some such, then when confirmed it is right, maybe scratch in some type of permanent etch?

This whole adventure turning out to be too much fun.

 

[Dartswinger70]

Yes, you can put #1 anywhere but then you only have so much room to turn the distributor housing to set timing. The reason the plug wire was on # 6 is because that is TDC exhaust for # 1 cyl and that correlates with dot to dot on the cam gear. So what is supposed to happen is align the cam gear dot to dot, turn crank 180 then drop the distributor in with the rotor pointing at #1 cylinder. If you don't turn the crank 180 the car pops and sputters when you try and start it with the distributor out at 180. The fix is easy enough you lift the distributor up turn the rotor 180 and drop it back down . Someone thought it easier to move the #1 wire to number 6 etc.