Help! Newly renovated engine got stuck while cranking it...

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Tocca

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This is a looong post I know, but I just wanted to write down all information. If you don't care to read the whole post the problem that we need help with is in the header. But if you read the whole post I will give you some nice pictures of the engine swap at the bottom as a thank you! =)

So me and my brother got a, supposedly newly renovated, 318 to swap into our Barracuda -66 because the stock 273 have been having compression issues lately. The 318 from 1985-ish was already configured to go into an a-body so the only thing that we needed to swap from the 273 was the oil pan and the oil pickup since the 318 one was to big. We also swapped the carburetor just for kicks...

At the end of the swap, when we were trying to start the engine it went fine a while, but then it got harder and harder to pull around both by hand and with the starter, and eventually it got stuck. Without ever being started at all...

First weekend we cranked it a bit by hand (mostly in the CW direction), after the oil was emptied out, to dial in the bell housing. It still had some lubrication left tough, and we turned it perhaps 15 turns slowly by hand. Everything seemed fine. After we installed it, and put oil in it (to the full mark on the stick), we then worked up the oil pressure with the starter and it still seemed just fine. Then we put on the spark cables and tried to start it but it didn't fire so we decided to have another go the next weekend after reading up on ignition timing and what not.

Last weekend we tried to configure the distributor, firing order and ignition timing. We turned it both by hand (again mostly CW) and with the starter about five minutes in total but we only got one lousy cylinder to ignite one time. The engine seemed to have oil pressure tough (gauge didn't work but we had one of the valve covers off so we could see it lubricate) so we thought we simply flooded it. So we blew compressed air down the spark plug holes and on the spark plugs to air out all gasoline and decided to swap in the working distributor from the old 273 the next morning. Then we gave it another go.

This is were we first had some trouble with the engine giving some resistance. At first we tough it was just the battery running out, but the resistance remained even with start booster and new battery. The starter just went slower and slower. This is were we noticed that the engine was very hard to turn, and that the cables from the batteries were warm from trying to drive the starter against the resistance. If we used all our force we could just barely crank the engine by hand like one inch. Even with the spark plugs out to remove compression it was the same problem. We didn't try to turn it after that, neither CW or CCW.

And this is were we are at. You guys have any toughs? We are thankful for any help or suggestions we can get. Did we do anything wrong that is likely to have caused the problem or is it more likely that the engine wasn't renovated correctly? Unfortunately I don't have any information about the renovation of the 318, just that it was done perhaps six-twelve months ago before we bought it, and that it haven't been started since. The only irregularities we noticed was some flakes of paint inside the engine when removing the oil pan (see picture) that we didn't clean out very well...
 

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That could be anything really but it could be that you washed the oil out of the cylinders with the gas and the rings may have gaulded in the bores. it would be wise of you to pull the intake and heads and have a look see
 
You should have primed the oilpump untill you had oil on the rockers. It does not take alot of turning over a dry engine to do damage to rings and bearings. How long has engine sat befor it was installed in the car because all the oil has drained off cylinder walls and you are turning it over dry. If it was mine at this point I would preoil and turn over by hand and see if it will loosen up for you. Maybe some guys that do alot of rebuilding will chime in with some other ideas.
 
You could confirm that by putting a little oil in the cyls and a quick shot of air to blow it around in the cylinders, then try to turn it backwards first then forward again. (Real easy just to move the rings a little)
If it free's up then do a comp test and see what you have.

Even if it does free up cudascott's suggestion is a really good idea, just to see how marred the cyl walls are.
 
We run the engine without spark cables to build oil pressure and get oil up the rockers. Maybe this wasn't a good way, we should have primed only the pump without the engine rotating?

Is it likely that we have damaged the rings or bearings now that the engine is kinda stuck, or is it still a chance to make it move again correctly and unharmed by using TrailBeasts advice? Just a follow up question. When you say a little oil in the cyls you mean pour some in each hole where the spark plugs go?
 
well... could you spin it around by hand before you put it in? i would take out the pushrods and see if you can turn it in case its out of time. if that doesnt work then you might have to take it out
 
At the risk of sounding simple or being too obvious I'd ask if you are sure you don't have the ignition timing too far advanced? That'll definitely make it labor during cranking. After that I would see if you can get a hold of a borescope & take a look down the cylinders & check for damage as previously mentioned. A borescope would save you some of the hassles of tearing the heads off of it right away. If all looks well then I'd inject some oil into the cylinders as suggested & see if it losens up. But even then I'd be hoping no damages done already.
 
Down the sparkplug hole, and use the air to distribute it around the pistons and rings, or it will just puddle up on the exhaust side of the piston and not get the entire ring area on the cyl walls.
Like a tablespoon in each cylinder.
If it does end up breaking loose, it still may have trashed the rings.
How long the engine sat was a good question, cause if it sat for some time the oil on the cyl walls would have run off.
Turning it dry with the starter could have built up enough friction to gall the cylinder walls.
Just because you have oil pressure does not mean the cyls have oil.
That happens only when the engine is actually running, and not from the oil pump pumping.

We run the engine without spark cables to build oil pressure and get oil up the rockers. Maybe this wasn't a good way, we should have primed only the pump without the engine rotating?

Is it likely that we have damaged the rings or bearings now that the engine is kinda stuck, or is it still a chance to make it move again correctly and unharmed by using TrailBeasts advice? Just a follow up question. When you say a little oil in the cyls you mean pour some in each hole where the spark plugs go?
 
He said it started slowing down while cranking and eventually got really tight.
Personally, I would break er loose with the oil and fire it up.
If it ran ok and didn't smoke after the breakloose oil burned off, then I would compression test it and decide from there.

Not really comfortable suggesting someone else do it though. (Break it loose and fire it)
Just what I would do.


At the risk of sounding simple or being too obvious I'd ask if you are sure you don't have the ignition timing too far advanced? That'll definitely make it labor during cranking. After that I would see if you can get a hold of a borescope & take a look down the cylinders & check for damage as previously mentioned. A borescope would save you some of the hassles of tearing the heads off of it right away. If all looks well then I'd inject some oil into the cylinders as suggested & see if it losens up. But even then I'd be hoping no damages done already.
 
Yes, I could spin it around by hand like normal. And when we tried the start motor first it sounded and felt like normal, with the only exception that it wouldn't ignite. It was first after we changed the distributor we really started to notice anything strange. And of course this was also after we had flooded it and blown out the cyl with compressed air. After that we only bursted a few times with the start engine, between the battery changes, before it got to a state almost completely stuck...

The ignition timing might not be completely correctly, but since we can't even turn it by hand I am positive that isn't the problem... I think the mechanic that helped us has a borescope, will check that with him next time I get a chance.
 
A too long of fuel pump bolt could touch the timing chain, easy to check.

I would remove all the valve gear to isolate the shortblock before turning anymore.
 
He said it started slowing down while cranking and eventually got really tight.
Personally, I would break er loose with the oil and fire it up.
If it ran ok and didn't smoke after the breakloose oil burned off, then I would compression test it and decide from there.

Not really comfortable suggesting someone else do it though. (Break it loose and fire it)
Just what I would do.

That might be the thing we try, but the problem is that we never got it to start. I think we dialed in the ignition timing just as it started to get stuck, but I can't be sure.
 
I'd feel a lot better about it if it freed up with the oil in the cylinders first.
Then you could go about getting it started and timed.

Be aware that it will probably be a little tighter stuck when you get back to it.

Oil it good and try to ease it back and forth a bit.


That might be the thing we try, but the problem is that we never got it to start. I think we dialed in the ignition timing just as it started to get stuck, but I can't be sure.
 
Did you check the starter after the slow down and stop...maybe it is fried and stuck. Do you hear it engage and disengage? Check the simple stuff first.
 
He said earlier that they were turning it by hand and it was normal at first.
Then it got tighter using the starter and by hand.
 

i would still take the starter out and take the rockers off , the plugs out and see if it will spin by hand. put a known good starter in it. if it doesnt spin then................
 
I read in another thread of yours that you´ve had issues with the tranny.
Could it be the same issue that´s giving you trouble with the cranking of the engine now?
 
i would still take the starter out and take the rockers off , the plugs out and see if it will spin by hand. put a known good starter in it. if it doesnt spin then................


I would do what was said above by 73AbodEE with the oil as mentioned before by TrailBeast. Mopar has a gear reduction starter and if it is hung up in the flywheel you will have a tough time turning engine. I have been down this road. An old friend of mine always drove the KISS program in my head. That means Keep It Simple Stupid. Slow down and start with the simple things and eliminate things as you go.
 
I read in another thread of yours that you´ve had issues with the tranny.
Could it be the same issue that´s giving you trouble with the cranking of the engine now?

good catch,i would listen to swedefish on this one and probably alot more he is a sharpminded guy!

also i wouldnt feel all that good about those paintflakes in the shortblock(i have seen worse and got away with worse but i would never feel safe about it if it was someone elses engine),and its not the flakes themselfes but what more could have been ignored and left inside,it makes me think that whoever built/assembled that engine in the first place might not have had enough attention to detail.
 
I read in another thread of yours that you´ve had issues with the tranny.
Could it be the same issue that´s giving you trouble with the cranking of the engine now?

Na, I resolved that very easy. It was the lower lever that was stuck in gear so I just disconnected the lever, pulled it out of gear and reconnected the linkage again. Shifts just fine now.

I would do what was said above by 73AbodEE with the oil as mentioned before by TrailBeast. Mopar has a gear reduction starter and if it is hung up in the flywheel you will have a tough time turning engine. I have been down this road. An old friend of mine always drove the KISS program in my head. That means Keep It Simple Stupid. Slow down and start with the simple things and eliminate things as you go.

Yes I will start with that. I won't be able to fix with the car until next weekend tough. But man, oh man, how happy I would be if it were something simple! =) Question tough, why remove rockers? To remove even more compression than what was removed when uninstalling spark plugs?
 
good catch,i would listen to swedefish on this one and probably alot more he is a sharpminded guy!

also i wouldnt feel all that good about those paintflakes in the shortblock(i have seen worse and got away with worse but i would never feel safe about it if it was someone elses engine),and its not the flakes themselfes but what more could have been ignored and left inside,it makes me think that whoever built/assembled that engine in the first place might not have had enough attention to detail.

I don't think the tranny is the problem, see my answer above. But your second concern is also my biggest concern. Paint flakes in the shortblock, lack of gasket to the distributor, etc would suggest that the one who renovated and assembled the engine didn't pay attention to details...
 
Question tough, why remove rockers? To remove even more compression than what was removed when uninstalling spark plugs?

because that will relieve any top end stress and avoid any valve to piston contact (where applicable )if it is out of time. plus you wont bend anything if it is. i watched a guy spin around a 440 with a cheater bar that was out of time, and right before our eyes we watched the pushrods bend.

with all of that out of the way, there is no reason this engine should not spin freely. of course unless theres a bad bearing. the only thing outside of the bottom end rotating by itself without any resistance is going to be the timing chain to the cam, and the oil pump / distributor drive. just for kicks, put it neutral
 
If it got worse and worse and then locked down, it's a bearing failure. Cut and dry.
 
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