High Volume Water Pump or Not

[El Guapo 604]

Chronic cooling issues with my 440 has forced me to look at different cooling options and I'm in need of advice.
I'm currently running an aluminum 2 core rad with an electric puller fan which is not suitable for cruising...not good at all, really. Running too hot all the time...around 210. Getting tired of stressing out with one eye always on the temp gauge. I'm getting squealing on hot startups sometimes so I'm assuming the water pump is on it's way out, so I'm considering going with a high volume impeller when I replace it. I see mixed opinions everywhere on the web but I really can't see it hurting at all. Anyone have any experience/opinions with high flow impeller on a hot 440?
(I'm not expecting this to solve my heat issues-just thought the HV unit would be a good way to eliminate flow questions on the way to a solution.)

 

[71Twister440]

Chronic cooling issues with my 440 has forced me to look at different cooling options and I'm in need of advice.
I'm currently running an aluminum 2 core rad with an electric puller fan which is not suitable for cruising...not good at all, really. Running too hot all the time...around 210. Getting tired of stressing out with one eye always on the temp gauge. I'm getting squealing on hot startups sometimes so I'm assuming the water pump is on it's way out, so I'm considering going with a high volume impeller when I replace it. I see mixed opinions everywhere on the web but I really can't see it hurting at all. Anyone have any experience/opinions with high flow impeller on a hot 440?
(I'm not expecting this to solve my heat issues-just thought the HV unit would be a good way to eliminate flow questions on the way to a solution.)

Check your fan setup, shroud etc, I am no expert but I followed multiple recommendations about a Ford Contour Electric fan setup mod it solved my issues, (I run a worked 440 in my 71 duster) Meziere Electric pump, Champion 2 core alum radiator, gutted t stat, straight water and usually right about 195, even romping on it or in traffic I stay at 205. Def happy so far with results.

 

[El Guapo 604]

Check your fan setup, shroud etc, I am no expert but I followed multiple recommendations about a Ford Contour Electric fan setup mod it solved my issues, (I run a worked 440 in my 71 duster) Meziere Electric pump, Champion 2 core alum radiator, gutted t stat, straight water and usually right about 195, even romping on it or in traffic I stay at 205. Def happy so far with results.

Sounds like a great option! I have no shroud just the fan directly on the rad offset from water pump nose because of space limitations.
I'm guessing the electric water pump freed up the room for the shroud? How thick is your rad?

Have you got any pics of that setup or link to a thread about it?

 

[71Twister440]

Sounds like a great option! I have no shroud just the fan directly on the rad offset from water pump nose because of space limitations.
I'm guessing the electric water pump freed up the room for the shroud? How thick is your rad?

Have you got any pics of that setup or link to a thread about it?

Search for 72blunblue build thread about the contour fan setup and goldduster318 has the PDF file that covers how he did his. I am currently at work and wont be near my car for a while but id say my radiator is 3 inches thick +/-.

 

[roccodart440]

Replace the water pump. Nothing wrong with high volume pumps.

I'd go to twin electrics if I were you and I'd also go with a twin fan controller like a Deralle etc. Takes some of the watching out of it. You can put a dummy light on the car too and set it to say 215 or 220 etc.

My machinist has always said " 230 is when you worry"

 

[brian6pac]

This is out of the Chrysler factory service manual, notice all air cond engines use a smaller impeller

 

[Johnny Dart]

Check out Flowkooler pumps.
Add a Moroso high flow statt.
See how that works for you.

 

[72bluNblu]

Here's some info on using the Ford Contour set up. The fan I actually use is a Dorman reproduction, 620-104. I run that with a Dakota Digital controller, PAC 2750. I use them with a Champion 26", 3 core radiator and a GMB high volume water pump. I use a standard 180* thermostat (not a high flow). I also have a 100 amp alternator and run the fans off of dual relays. Mine's for a 340, but it's .060" over with 9.8:1 compression, all iron, and puts out somewhere around 400 hp so it's not the easiest thing to cool.

[URL="https://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/threads/my-new-74-duster-or-why-i-need-a-project-like-a-hole-in-the-head.198098/page-3#post-1970313646"]My "new" '74 Duster- or why I need a project like a hole in the head[/URL]

And if I did this right, the PDF goldduster318 made should be attached at the bottom of my post.

This is out of the Chrysler factory service manual, notice all air cond engines use a smaller impellerView attachment 1715187762

Sure, but they also all used larger radiators, most used larger mechanical fans (except the ones that were already using the HD fans), and a different fan to crankshaft ratio. The AC cars used a 1.3:1 or 1.4:1 fan to crank ratio instead of the standard .95:1, so, the impeller was spinning faster. Do you know how the output of the smaller impeller spinning at a 1.3:1 ratio compares to the larger impeller at .95:1?

 

[pishta]

they all used a smaller impeller because their pulley rotational speed was ~50% higher. are you using an aluminum (ie. 440source) water pump housing? those have poor flow rates as noted on multiple sites. Stock aluminum S/S MP housings and iron housings do not have this restriction.

 

[brian6pac]

Here's some info on using the Ford Contour set up. The fan I actually use is a Dorman reproduction, 620-104. I run that with a Dakota Digital controller, PAC 2750. I use them with a Champion 26", 3 core radiator and a GMB high volume water pump. I use a standard 180* thermostat (not a high flow). I also have a 100 amp alternator and run the fans off of dual relays. Mine's for a 340, but it's .060" over with 9.8:1 compression, all iron, and puts out somewhere around 400 hp so it's not the easiest thing to cool.

My "new" '74 Duster- or why I need a project like a hole in the head

View attachment 1715187788

And if I did this right, the PDF goldduster318 made should be attached at the bottom of my post.



Sure, but they also all used larger radiators, most used larger mechanical fans (except the ones that were already using the HD fans), and a different fan to crankshaft ratio. The AC cars used a 1.3:1 or 1.4:1 fan to crank ratio instead of the standard .95:1, so, the impeller was spinning faster. Do you know how the output of the smaller impeller spinning at a 1.3:1 ratio compares to the larger impeller at .95:1?

Not sure on ratio vs impeller vs cavitation and I haven't found any info on high capacity and impeller size, but if the coolant doesn't spend enough time in the radiator it can't be cooled.
When I had this model A with the 400 11.1 motor (chevy) sorry, I tried everything to cool it The walker 4 core did it and even used a Tuff Stuff Water pump with the super cool option they claim 30% more flow and 20* F cooler temps. The passage in the pump were smaller than stock and I called and talked to there tech and he told me it slows down the speed and keeps the water in the radiator longer? high flow? to me it really doesn't make sense, smaller hole = less volume higher speed?

 

[Inertia]

This is out of the Chrysler factory service manual, notice all air cond engines use a smaller impellerView attachment 1715187762

They are also overdriven, to increase fan speed.

 

[72bluNblu]

Not sure on ratio vs impeller vs cavitation and I haven't found any info on high capacity and impeller size, but if the coolant doesn't spend enough time in the radiator it can't be cooled.
When I had this model A with the 400 11.1 motor (chevy) sorry, I tried everything to cool it The walker 4 core did it and even used a Tuff Stuff Water pump with the super cool option they claim 30% more flow and 20* F cooler temps. The passage in the pump were smaller than stock and I called and talked to there tech and he told me it slows down the speed and keeps the water in the radiator longer? high flow? to me it really doesn't make sense, smaller hole = less volume higher speed?

Given the speed at which air is pulled through the radiator, it would be fairly difficult to flow water through the radiator too fast. The smaller impeller was likely done for pump efficiency at the driven speed, not because it would circulate the water too fast. Plus, the faster the water goes, the more trips through the radiator it makes, so you have to balance the heat lost with each trip vs the number of trips through the system. Kinda like looking at the speed the impeller is turning, just because the impeller is smaller doesn't necessarily mean it's not pumping more water.

If anything, the water can be circulated through the engine too fast. The heat uptake rate slows as the water is heated, the hotter the water gets the longer it has to hang out to absorb more energy. Plus, in the engine the only thing moving is the water over the heated surface. In the radiator, you have both the air and the water moving, so, the water is exposed to a large volume of air moving past it. And the hotter the water is, the faster it wants to shed that energy and the larger the temperature differential is with the air, again improving the rate of energy dissipation. That's actually the argument for a standard vs a high flow thermostat too, to keep the water in the engine longer to better absorb the heat.

I've heard the whole "water flow through the radiator too fast" argument a bunch of times. If you look at the thermodynamics of how it actually works, that argument doesn't look nearly as good. Obviously at the extreme end it's possible, but given the application here there's usually another explanation for why something isn't cooling efficiently. That's not saying the whole system doesn't have to be matched up, it does, and the speed of water circulation is part of that. But it's not the biggest driver of cooling efficiency. Surface area and the volume of air flow are by far the biggest.