Looking for a cam for my Slant Six build. This one from Hughes looks like it matches my car/engine combo (64 Valiant wagon, 3.23 gears, 225, stock pistons, mildly ported heads with stock size valves, stock exhaust manifold with outlet ported to 2-1/2", TTI 2-1/2" exhaust system, Weber 38/38 DGES carb on an Aussie Speed short runner intake). Would it work good with the rest of the combo? If not what cam would you recommend? Also, what TIMING CHAIN would you recommend? Thanks.
Hughes cam?
- Thread starter glockr
- Start date
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E7polyhachett
Well-Known Member
@ RustyRatRod
Hughes totally revamped their slant 6 line a while back. They had some good grinds. They don't anymore.
my68barracuda
Well-Known Member
Since Hughes seems to specialize in Mopar parts, their cam grinds maybe based on Mopar profiles that take advantage of the large .903 diameter lifter that Mopars use. I know a lot of slant six folks like to use Oregon Cam Grinders, and I have also, but most of their cam profiles are based on Comp Cam and other Chevy profiles that are made to accommodate the small diameter Chevy lifter. The smaller diameter lifter requires a slower opening ramp. A larger diameter lifter can accommodate a faster opening ramp.
The last cam that I ordered from Oregon they had to look long to find a grind that was made for the larger lifter. If I was to order another slant six cam I would be talking to the folks at Hughes to see if their lobes are made from Mopar masters and designed for the larger Mopar lifter.
Concerning the cam choice that you have listed.
You did not mention the target compression ratio that you are building to. That is one of the considerations.
With a target of 8.5 to 9.0 that Hughes cam would be fine.
Most slant six folks would advance that cam a bit to get to a 102 or 101 ICL.
I would put that all through an online dynamic compression calculator to see what that number is.
For the timing chain. If you degree the cam, you take the possibility of error in the timing chain marking out of the equation. You can also get the ICL where you want it.
Buy a Cloyes or equivalent, a degree wheel and degree the cam and get the cam set right.
The last cam that I ordered from Oregon they had to look long to find a grind that was made for the larger lifter. If I was to order another slant six cam I would be talking to the folks at Hughes to see if their lobes are made from Mopar masters and designed for the larger Mopar lifter.
Concerning the cam choice that you have listed.
You did not mention the target compression ratio that you are building to. That is one of the considerations.
With a target of 8.5 to 9.0 that Hughes cam would be fine.
Most slant six folks would advance that cam a bit to get to a 102 or 101 ICL.
I would put that all through an online dynamic compression calculator to see what that number is.
For the timing chain. If you degree the cam, you take the possibility of error in the timing chain marking out of the equation. You can also get the ICL where you want it.
Buy a Cloyes or equivalent, a degree wheel and degree the cam and get the cam set right.
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What is the calculated static CR You are working with?
They were before they changed the profiles, but they are hardly what they were now. I'm no longer impressed.
It's gonna be a stock block and stock type pistons, I'll probably have the head milled 0.100 so I'm guessing the CR will be about 9:1 or just a bit lower. Don't have the engine apart yet to measure anything.
j par
Well-hung Member
I always send my current factory cam into Oregon cam and have it reground into what I want for $99... Hughes engines does not grind cams..
my68barracuda
Well-Known Member
And the cam lobe masters that Oregon has are designed for the small diameter GM lifter.
You are giving up the one thing that Mopar has going for it. The ability to run a steeper ramp on the cam due to the larger diameter Mopar lifter.
j par
Well-hung Member
They are a cam grinder you can have them grind anything you want they just give a list of typical stuff but I have a one-off cam in my power wagon right now that is not listed...
I fully understand the larger circumference of the lifter allowing for a faster ramp but that's not always necessary.. not everything built here is a Max effort but maybe that's what the lp wants and that's what the forum is for to give everybody's input and let somebody make their own decision...
Not if you tell Ken you want a Mopar lobe. He's fully capable of grinding Mopar specific camshafts. But you have to tell him.
Correct. Last I understood Bullet ground theirs.
Rat Bastid
Dunamis Metron
I didn’t see Ken at the swap meet this year. I need to stop in a see him next month since I’ll be over there.
Last I knew he was punching the clock, screwing off on his phone and collecting a pay check lol.
I thought he was going to actually retire retire but I doubt he will.
Rat Bastid
Dunamis Metron
I think Howard’s is grinding the Hughe’s lobes.
He told me the same thing, but I don't think he will either. lol
my68barracuda
Well-Known Member
I am sure the Oregon is capable of grinding Mopar lobes, the machinery will duplicate the profile of the cam lobe master that is loaded in, the problem is that Oregon does not have any Mopar cam lobe masters to have the machinery duplicate.
For the last cam I had ground at Oregon, and this was two years ago, I was on the phone with Ken and he did not have any masters that specified a .903 lifter, eventually he did come up with one that specified the .875 Ford lifter as the minimum diameter lifter compatible with that grind.
Perhaps Oregon now has some Mopar lobe masters. But they did not as recent as a couple of years ago.
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I'll call him and see. The last time I spoke with him he said it wasn't a problem. I'm all about it might have been me that misunderstood. Especially as bad as my hearing is and the fact that there's nothing between my ears to slow anything down I might hear.
So how did yall like Nu Way? I did forget to mention that they usually stick with you a day or two. lol
j par
Well-hung Member
Ken sold out to Don's machine shop in Portland...
He's still there most of the time but likely when he feels like it...
Here's my experience whether taking advantage of a bigger surface of the lifter or whatever you want to get technical about...
Every time Ken's ground me a cam and he's done it several times it's been exactly what I asked for... Now did I ask for a cam to specifically take advantage of the larger Mopar lifter surface? I don't know..
OP is welcome to spend his money at Hughes engines. I just tried to give people a cost-effective alternative...
Since I've given my opinion I'll go ahead and push the unwatch button on this thread so unless somebody wants to quote me I'm out..
He's still there most of the time but likely when he feels like it...
Here's my experience whether taking advantage of a bigger surface of the lifter or whatever you want to get technical about...
Every time Ken's ground me a cam and he's done it several times it's been exactly what I asked for... Now did I ask for a cam to specifically take advantage of the larger Mopar lifter surface? I don't know..
OP is welcome to spend his money at Hughes engines. I just tried to give people a cost-effective alternative...
Since I've given my opinion I'll go ahead and push the unwatch button on this thread so unless somebody wants to quote me I'm out..
my68barracuda
Well-Known Member
an article that explains lifter diameter and valve train acceleration rates.
Ask Anything: Larger Lifters
Ask Anything: Larger Lifters
That's not an entirely accurate response. The convex face on the lifter is not just to keep the edge from "digging in", it is to match & put the tapered lobe in contact with one side of the lifter face, causing it to rotate, while using the valve spring loads to keep the cam sprocket seated against the block face.
The ramp & nose radii of the lobe are the only things preventing "edging", and are limited by the lifter diameter, otherwise You could just increase the convex face angle/radius on the lifter.
Most streetable Mopar-only lobes provide a fraction of the real potential the bigger lifter offers, but it is still an advantage. True max aggressive Mopar lobes require a good bit more valve spring loads, the quality of valvetrain components has to be tops.
The ramp & nose radii of the lobe are the only things preventing "edging", and are limited by the lifter diameter, otherwise You could just increase the convex face angle/radius on the lifter.
Most streetable Mopar-only lobes provide a fraction of the real potential the bigger lifter offers, but it is still an advantage. True max aggressive Mopar lobes require a good bit more valve spring loads, the quality of valvetrain components has to be tops.
Rat Bastid
Dunamis Metron
The benefit of .904 lobes for flat tappet cams is you can decrease seat to seat timing and keep the same or quicker @ .050 numbers.
Thats a big deal because let‘s say you have two cams, both 230 @ .050 and one is 265 off the seat and the other is 258 off the seat. The slower lobe off the seat will have less vacuum at idle and clearly valve speed is lower.
On top of that, the 265 off the seat lobe is 131 degrees @ .200 while the 258 off the seat is .150 degrees @ .200!!!
Not only is the .904 lobe later opening by 7 degrees, it’s caught the .842 lobe to .050, but its 19 (NINETEEN) degrees bigger at .200 lift.
Thats HUGE area under the curve and it makes power. And you’ll have a cleaner, smoother idle with more vacuum.
Thats why using .904 lobes is always a better choice when you can do it.
It matters with roller lobes too. You can only get a roller wheel of .750 diameter with an .842 lifter. That’s a small wheel AND because the unit loading is higher and because the axle of the roller is a smaller diameter you are limited to about 280-300 pounds of spring load on the seat. That’s not much.
On the .904 lifter, you can get an .815 diameter wheel, with a larger axle and that means you can get to about 350-360 pounds of spring load on the seat and have the same or better reliability as the .842 lifter.
So lifter diameter matters with both flat tappet and roller lifters.
Its too bad Chrysler guys still don’t take advantage of the .904 lifter more often. I guess it’s because it’s too easy to get on the web and order an off the shelf Comp or Lunati or whoever else stocks cams than it is to pick up the phone and get a cam ground for .904 lobes.
The cost is the same whether you get a cam with .842 or .904 lobes so that’s not a reason not to use .904 lobes either.
Any cam regrinder, any of them do not make their own masters. They copy lobes from a cam. So the only way they’d have lobes for .904 lifters is if they’ve already copied a lobe from a cam that was ground for .904 lobes.
I know for a fact that Oregon Cams does have .904 lobes. I’ve seen some of them and I know he has had to weld a regrind several .904 lobe cams because we couldn’t get the cam replaced quick enough.
I don’t recall what lobes those were, but I’m sure there are more of them than those two.
And yes, they weld up cast iron cores and then regrind them. Some cores are nonexistent.
Thats a big deal because let‘s say you have two cams, both 230 @ .050 and one is 265 off the seat and the other is 258 off the seat. The slower lobe off the seat will have less vacuum at idle and clearly valve speed is lower.
On top of that, the 265 off the seat lobe is 131 degrees @ .200 while the 258 off the seat is .150 degrees @ .200!!!
Not only is the .904 lobe later opening by 7 degrees, it’s caught the .842 lobe to .050, but its 19 (NINETEEN) degrees bigger at .200 lift.
Thats HUGE area under the curve and it makes power. And you’ll have a cleaner, smoother idle with more vacuum.
Thats why using .904 lobes is always a better choice when you can do it.
It matters with roller lobes too. You can only get a roller wheel of .750 diameter with an .842 lifter. That’s a small wheel AND because the unit loading is higher and because the axle of the roller is a smaller diameter you are limited to about 280-300 pounds of spring load on the seat. That’s not much.
On the .904 lifter, you can get an .815 diameter wheel, with a larger axle and that means you can get to about 350-360 pounds of spring load on the seat and have the same or better reliability as the .842 lifter.
So lifter diameter matters with both flat tappet and roller lifters.
Its too bad Chrysler guys still don’t take advantage of the .904 lifter more often. I guess it’s because it’s too easy to get on the web and order an off the shelf Comp or Lunati or whoever else stocks cams than it is to pick up the phone and get a cam ground for .904 lobes.
The cost is the same whether you get a cam with .842 or .904 lobes so that’s not a reason not to use .904 lobes either.
Any cam regrinder, any of them do not make their own masters. They copy lobes from a cam. So the only way they’d have lobes for .904 lifters is if they’ve already copied a lobe from a cam that was ground for .904 lobes.
I know for a fact that Oregon Cams does have .904 lobes. I’ve seen some of them and I know he has had to weld a regrind several .904 lobe cams because we couldn’t get the cam replaced quick enough.
I don’t recall what lobes those were, but I’m sure there are more of them than those two.
And yes, they weld up cast iron cores and then regrind them. Some cores are nonexistent.
my68barracuda
Well-Known Member
Agree, if someone is putting in the effort to have a custom ground cam, it just makes sense to ask the additional question to the cam grinder, ‘what is the minimum diameter lifter for that specific grind?’
Picking a lobe that’s designed for a Mopar or even a Ford lifter will result in a cam with more response capability.
And again, my experience with Oregon cams and Mopar lobes is a few years in the past. So perhaps they have Mopar lobe masters available today.
I will bet that they won’t get more if we don’t ask for them. So do that.
Picking a lobe that’s designed for a Mopar or even a Ford lifter will result in a cam with more response capability.
And again, my experience with Oregon cams and Mopar lobes is a few years in the past. So perhaps they have Mopar lobe masters available today.
I will bet that they won’t get more if we don’t ask for them. So do that.
True the right Mopar specific lobes can net huge gains, but it depends on what You're starting with. Run of the mill Comp Magnum to Extreme Chrysler hydraulics, big, MM or MP lobes humongus. But if You start with an Extreme Energy 284° .842" lifter profile, to a Purple Plus 284° .904" lifter profile, it is actually a tick smaller at .050" and 1° bigger at .200". Yet the XEH has .338" lobes vs the .323" for the PPH, so a .o22" loss w/1.5's, both are rated advertised @.006" lift. You need to know what Your engine wants, & what quality of valvetrain You're willing to purchase, high lift rates are harsh.
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Charrlie_S
Well-Known Member
Any of you people remember the old Mopar Performance/Direct Connection "Mini Express" cams with mushroom tappets?
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