I need some input! Cam button?

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"Not to mention the incomplete thoughts expressed... and then re-expressed and tangents that appear in some posts."

To be honest, i am typing most of my posts VERY quickly & "on the fly" so to speak, as i have a busy job, a 1.5 hour commute one way, and a 3 month old infant who is usually screaming for my attention, as she is now. Not a great excuse, but that why many of my posts are less than complete. I generally try to make it a practice to only post on my days off Sunday/Monday, but that still doenst help with the screaming baby. Plus Honestly I LOVE to spend time with her, so my internet time is to say the least limited. Signing off for now. I WILL try to address this subject more fully after I post the dyno test in question, but it is pretty involved.
 
Well, . . . where to start. . . I appreciate everyone's knowledge and input, sorry about the cam button/chevy confusion I'm in Janesville, WI look us up we were a GM plant town so there's a ton of chevy guys and shops that specialize in them so I get lost on words sometimes lol.
I was really hoping to just put a new cam, gear/shaft, bushing, timing chain, and maybe oil pump in it and clean what I could withouth pulling the motor but it's not sounding like any of you are gonna let me off that easy (damn) I'm really not totally sure on what cam yet but sounds like I have bigger worries and not much money to deal with them. Thanks again and anymore helpful knowledge or advice is always welcome.
 
Would a new Melling high volume oil pump already have this drive gear bushing in it??? I'd assume so but I've been wrong before, anyone know for sure?

Hows about this cam??Hughes Engines HUG HEH2832AL
 
the bushing is pressed into the block,pull the distributor,then remove the intermediate shaft and the bushing is right there,hope this was helpful
 
The deal with the schrapnel is it will just keep getting in places and causing issues. At minimum I would drop the pan and clean it out plus wpie down the valley area where debris collects. It's up to you, but any stuff left in it can still be whipped around, end up between piston skirts and cylinder walls, in rings, in between the new cam and lifters, etc. Another trick is a large flat magnet on the end and/or sides of the oil filter for a few hundred miles. I'd also pull the oil pump and disassemble/clean it. Stuff happens. Sometimes you just need to do it again...lol.
 
The deal with the schrapnel is it will just keep getting in places and causing issues. At minimum I would drop the pan and clean it out plus wpie down the valley area where debris collects. It's up to you, but any stuff left in it can still be whipped around, end up between piston skirts and cylinder walls, in rings, in between the new cam and lifters, etc. Another trick is a large flat magnet on the end and/or sides of the oil filter for a few hundred miles. I'd also pull the oil pump and disassemble/clean it. Stuff happens. Sometimes you just need to do it again...lol.

Good call, I always put this speaker magnet I found on my truck filter but I don't think I did it on the duster, what am I thinkin? Take care of the ram and neglect the Duster, shame on me. BTW guys I took a look at it after school today, it's for sure the bushing, anyone know where I might be able to get one and what it's gonna take to put it in?? as always any help is appreciated.
 
I bought my last bushing from Summit but most any Mopar performance parts supplier has them also. You'll have to drive the old one up through the bottom to get it out and there's a special driver/burnishing tool to install it. Mancini's racing most likely sells the tool.
 
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/howto/mopp_0506_camshaft_specs/lsa.html

This is a link from a mopar mag that might help things make sense. As opposed to simply saying we just can't grasp the theory. George, just my observation and opinion, but you tend to overgeneralize and make opposing viewpoints seem wrong based entirely on your experience. Not to mention the incomplete thoughts expressed... and then re-expressed and tangents that appear in some posts. So just as i do with most other guys I have respect for, I simply request more than some dude on the 'net telling me otherwise. I'd be very interested in real theory, not graphs from a dyno. Tell me why it is as you say. I can tell you I understand the physics involved as well as most, better than some. That beign said, the subtleties of cams and the dynamics of a running engine have yet to be duplicated for study. Without profiling the cams in question, I'll stay on the simple side of the lesser overlap with an earlier closing intake valve will always make more cylinder pressure at lower engine speeds. Not all cams are measured the same, there is no apples to apples on many of these, and Mopar has never published good numbers. On the subject of MP cams... The reason I wouldnt use them has no more to do with the LSA and duration numbers than the purple rustproofing coating they run. They are manufactured with no regard to quality. So I don't use them.
In regard to the OP, I honestly would be concerned over the oil contamination from the debris in addition to the oil pump drive and bushing. Also, you lost oil pressure... if the cam timing was affected, you may have bent valves too. I think I would at least pull the valve covers and intake and snoop a bit.
OK, I am gonna scan the article after work tonight, it will probably be the weekend before I post it, as I will post my explanation at the same time, and while it is simple, it IS fairly long, & I will need some time without baby demanding my attention, so I will have to pick a quiet time.

In the meantime, I am interested in hearing Mopers theory as to why tight lobe separation decreases cranking compression. As I understand it, Moper & fishy68 take the position that the increased overlap bleeds off the cylinder pressure. Am I correct in this assumption?
Any explanation you give isnt going to affect my explanation, it will be based on fundamental first year autoshop stuff.
 
Wig, You can get bushings almost anywhere. Dorman makes them and most parts places can get them easy enough. They do need to be claeranced once they are driven in place. There is a burnisher for this, or if you're cheap like me, I cut the gear teeth off a brand new non performance drive and I use that to clearance the bushing for the new drives.

George, When you get the thing scanned we can start a new post. I'm interested in it too.
'Grats on the new babay by the way.
 
Thats what I was thinking too, might be better to start a new thread. I am just on my lunch break right now, so short & sweet. The baby is SO MUCH fun, I LOVE being a dad.
The scans look kinda crappy, I did them on my photo-copier at work, but they are legible, so I guess they will do.
I think what I will do is post this stuff around 7:15 pacific time on Sunday morning, usually the wife & baby are still asleep, & I usually wake up about 7 anyway.
 
Was it a magazine article? Is there a link we could dig up?
Yes, its a magazine article. I posted the month & year earlier. When I do the explanation, do you guys prefer the valve events based on .050 numbers, or calculated off the advertised duration. I can do either one or both.
 
I agree with the guys about going through the motor as much as you can in an effort to remove all the metal from the engine before installing any new parts. You may still be able to get by on a budget but I would be very meticulous at cleaning the engine first.
 
Yes, its a magazine article. I posted the month & year earlier. When I do the explanation, do you guys prefer the valve events based on .050 numbers, or calculated off the advertised duration. I can do either one or both.

George just to clarify something. I don't claim to be a cam guru. I know a fair amount about them but I'm not an expert. I just quoted my understanding from articles I've read. I looked at all your posts and didn't find any magazine name or year as you say you posted but I am interested in reading it if you want to post it. In my opinion .050 numbers are more accurate because different companies rate total duration at different lifts such as .004, .006, and .008" therefore it's hard to compare cams from different companies by total duration. Nevertheless it wouldn't hurt to throw their total figures in. Moper has alot more knowledge on cam math than me so maybe he will have some input on your question also.

Wigsplitter: I apologize for cluttering up your thread even more with this post but since my name was mentioned I thought I'd respond. All other responses will be on George's new thread which I'm looking forward to. Also glad to hear you found your problem and that Hughes cam you mentioned should be a nice street/strip cam providing your engine has a decent compression level and you have the converter, gears, etc.. to match it and your valve guides are cut down for a high lift cam. I didn't look at the specs on that Hughes cam but I know Hughes cams usually have pretty high lift. Most stock Mopar heads won't accept higher than .450~.460 lift without modification.
 
The magnet thing will work for the stuff that a magnet will pick up but theres other metals floating around there that a magnet will not grab.
 
George just to clarify something. I don't claim to be a cam guru. I know a fair amount about them but I'm not an expert. I just quoted my understanding from articles I've read. I looked at all your posts and didn't find any magazine name or year as you say you posted but I am interested in reading it if you want to post it. In my opinion .050 numbers are more accurate because different companies rate total duration at different lifts such as .004, .006, and .008" therefore it's hard to compare cams from different companies by total duration. Nevertheless it wouldn't hurt to throw their total figures in. Moper has alot more knowledge on cam math than me so maybe he will have some input on your question also.

Wigsplitter: I apologize for cluttering up your thread even more with this post but since my name was mentioned I thought I'd respond. All other responses will be on George's new thread which I'm looking forward to. Also glad to hear you found your problem and that Hughes cam you mentioned should be a nice street/strip cam providing your engine has a decent compression level and you have the converter, gears, etc.. to match it and your valve guides are cut down for a high lift cam. I didn't look at the specs on that Hughes cam but I know Hughes cams usually have pretty high lift. Most stock Mopar heads won't accept higher than .450~.460 lift without modification.
Honestly, I'm a little confused as to why some people feel this is "cluttering up" wigsplitters post. he asked the question on this post about the .484, I gave him an answer, and a bunch of other guys (dusterdon, fishy68,moper) opened up this debate here on this thread. Wigsplitter still hasnt really got an accurate answer to his question that he posted on THIS thread, and thats what I am gonna provide. The fact that the answer isnt simple, or a one sentence answer seems to me to be beside the point.
Not trying to start a pissing match here, but thats the situation as I see it. Have I missed something?
And the month & year of the Car Craft the dyno test is in is on the first page of this thread, a couple down from my answer on the .484 question.
 
Honestly, I'm a little confused as to why some people feel this is "cluttering up" wigsplitters post. he asked the question on this post about the .484, I gave him an answer, and a bunch of other guys (dusterdon, fishy68,moper) opened up this debate here on this thread. Wigsplitter still hasnt really got an accurate answer to his question that he posted on THIS thread, and thats what I am gonna provide. The fact that the answer isnt simple, or a one sentence answer seems to me to be beside the point.
Not trying to start a pissing match here, but thats the situation as I see it. Have I missed something?
And the month & year of the Car Craft the dyno test is in is on the first page of this thread, a couple down from my answer on the .484 question.

George, speaking for myself I don't know where your getting I opened up any debate. I merely stated what I thought were the effects of wide vs. narrow lobe centers as I understand it. I never argued it with you. I simply stated my opinion once. Apparently your the one who seems to think its some sort of a debate. Maybe you think any time somebody disagrees with you it's time to debate???? Wigsplitter in his original post stated his problem with the dist. gear problem and asked for input about a cam button. At least that's how I read it. I didn't take it he was asking for cam recommendations but after you told him not to run the wide lobe center cam because it would cause him to loose power a few of us stated our opinions. If it's a debate it's because you opened it up. I would have been happy to not say any more about it unless such a time as Wigsplitter asked. So if you want to debate it go right ahead. I am not a cam math professional so I'll just stay out.
 
OK, I am not gonna rise (or sink) to this. Maybe debate was the wrong choice of words, is discussion better? I made a commitment to post this info, so I will. Once that is done, I wont get involved in any further tech postings on this board. Honestly, its just not worth the grief. The only reason I am on here is to say I am having trouble re-sizing the adobe file I downloaded. I will have something sorted out this afternoon.
 
Ok on george's last post,nothing personal as was said earlier,this is the original post from the author that started the thread,the guy has a chewed up camshaft and intermediate shaft and has lost oil pressure,Need Help is what he said,it could be a bone stock camshaft or an all out race camshaft........it doesn't matter if it makes any power at all...it matters that there is oil pressure and the gears not all chewed up and all those metal shavings not being pumped thru the engine,I think you were referring to me about this post being "cluttered up" but I assure you,I have taken no offence..really ....Look at the first post and see if what you are saying has any relevance to the problem stated in the original post......it doesn't!!!he needs a new camshaft,lifters,intermediate shaft and a new bushing,maybe an oil pump,maybe bearings and to clean the metal out of his engine....What you are saying is making a lot of sense but not for the problem at hand,very sorry ...don't mean to state the obviouse or offend anyone. :read2:
Well one day I lost spark and oil pressure in my 360. Pull the dist. out and I find out that the gear on the shaft that drives the dist. and oil pump is totally chewed and shot and the cam gear shows a wierd wear pattern. My guess is that the cam was walking, right? My motor has less than 6k on it and has always run good with no wierd noises. At this point I know I need a new shaft/gear and I'm going to put a new cam in it. Does anyone know if anybody makes a cam button or something to keep the new cam from walking and doing the same thing as this cam? It's a MP .430/.450 cam in it now and I'd like to step up to the MP .484 cam. Any input is appreciated as always.
 
The last two sentences say
"It's a MP .430/.450 cam in it now and I'd like to step up to the MP .484 cam. Any input is appreciated as always."
 
General Rules of Thumb on Tighter Lobe Separation

Pluses
Higher peak torque
Higher cranking compression
More area under the curve between torque peak & horsepower peak

Minuses
Lower idle vacuum
Power drops off faster after power peak
Torque drops off faster below torque peak
If intake port design is very efficient, and lobe separation is very tight,(106 or less) raw air/fuel mixture can be drawn through on overlap, which can cause peak torque and power to drop & bfsc to go up
If intake valve closes too early, peak power can drop due to insufficient cylinder filling at high rpm

Why it happens

Lets start out with the basics. The strokes of the 4 stroke internal combustion engine. Intake, compression, power, exhaust. Each stroke represents 180 degrees of crankshaft rotation, for a total of 720 degrees to go through all four cycles. Overlap occurs at the end of the exhaust cycle & the beginning of the intake cycle. Overlap begins when the intake valve opens prior to the piston reaching tdc at the end of the exhaust cycle, and ends with the closing of the exhaust valve after tdc on the intake cycle.

I will use the cam I recommended for wigsplitter as the example, as that is what started this discussion. For those that don’t recall, it is a single pattern Lunati profile with the following specs: [email protected], 290 advertised, 106 degree lobe separation, the cam is ground 4 degrees advanced, for an installed intake centerline of 102. For the purposes of this conversation, the lift is irrelevant, but it was .520 at the valve. If we use the .050 numbers off the cam card, overlap ends when the exhaust valve closes 10 degrees after tdc on the intake stroke, or 170 degrees before the compression stroke begins. At this point, anyone who has even a minimal understanding of how engines work can clearly see that overlap has NO effect on cranking compression.

At this point, we are 10 degrees into the intake stroke, the exhaust valve has closed, the intake valve is open, and the piston is traveling down the cylinder. As we reach bdc on the intake stroke, and the piston changes direction, the compression stroke is beginning. The intake valve is still open, and will not close until 42 degrees after bdc. This is with the 106 degree cam.

I picked 110 degrees for the wider lobe center version of the same cam. As this is a common number to be used on Comp Cams small-block street/strip cams, & they are pretty popular, I felt it would be a good example. If the lobe separation is widened to 110 degrees on this same Lunati cam, the intake valve now stays open till 46 degrees after bdc. You could actually run 8 degrees more duration on the 106 degree lobe separation cam before you would end up at the same intake closing point as the 110 lobe separation cam. Obviously, the cylinder cannot begin to build compression until the intake valve closes. The intake closing point is what is going to govern the cranking compression, not the overlap. The later you close the intake on the compression stroke, the less the cranking compression. As I said, simple first year high-school auto shop.

I also quickly changed the file on my 360 in my Performance Trends Engine Analyzer to the same cam specs and static compression ratio as this cam would have in wigsplitters combo. It lost 10 pounds of cranking compression. Based on the dyno test & my real-world experience (not that that is worth anything) this is probably on the conservative side, as the computer program assumes perfect ring seal ect.

Ultimately, the lesson here is, when you read something in a magazine, don’t just blindly accept it, think it out for yourself. Work it through in your head, ask yourself if it really makes sense. I have been reading magazines for long enough that I have read NUMEROUS articles on cam design, half the articles contradict each other. The guys who write this stuff are, for the most part, journalists who HAPPEN to work on or have an interest in cars. They aren’t cam designers, or engine builders. They get things wrong. ALL the TIME.

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Du lee noted,he's getting all the answers now...It's all good !!! thank's for sharing =)
 
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