Indy 360 -1 Rockers Options

-
moparspares

moparspares

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2010
Messages
616
Reaction score
103
Location
Scarborough, Qld
My Brother just broke a rocker on his stroker engine. What are the best options for rockers on these heads. I have only heard of T&D and Jesel. I thought Hughes engines would have done some but it doesn't appear so. Any Ideas
 
The 360-1 uses big block rockers, w/an .800" offset on the intake. So of course Indy 440-1 rockers, and Harland Sharp makes a rocker for the 440-1. If you are looking for the best, why are you looking beyond T&D and Jesel? Or did you mean cheaper?
 
Crower may also make the 440-1 rockers
 
IQ52 said:
The 360-1 uses big block rockers, w/an .800" offset on the intake. So of course Indy 440-1 rockers, and Harland Sharp makes a rocker for the 440-1. If you are looking for the best, why are you looking beyond T&D and Jesel? Or did you mean cheaper?
Click to expand...

Yeah you got me, probably cheaper. Indy have the T&D for $1155 which will probably be another 50% on top of that by the time they get here to Australia.
 
Have you determined why it broke a rocker? You can spend a pile of money on rockers and still break them, or something else, if they aren't set up properly.

When Indy puts a much longer than stock valve in a small block head, and then makes the rocker way too long so it can reach the valve tip, it's going to cause problems at some point. It's a geometry nightmare.

I'm sorry to say, there is no "cheap" here, because "right" would cost more than the $ for the T&D or Jesel rockers. There IS going to be machine work involved to do it right.
 
B3RE said:
Have you determined why it broke a rocker? You can spend a pile of money on rockers and still break them, or something else, if they aren't set up properly.

When Indy puts a much longer than stock valve in a small block head, and then makes the rocker way too long so it can reach the valve tip, it's going to cause problems at some point. It's a geometry nightmare.

I'm sorry to say, there is no "cheap" here, because "right" would cost more than the $ for the T&D or Jesel rockers. There IS going to be machine work involved to do it right.
Click to expand...


Can you expand on your fix for this problem?. I have heard of a lot of people breaking rockers on these but havent encountered any that have broken the T&D as yet.
 
moparspares said:
Can you expand on your fix for this problem?. I have heard of a lot of people breaking rockers on these but havent encountered any that have broken the T&D as yet.
Click to expand...
Any rocker has a fatigue life, and that life is shortened by unnecessary abuse from an unstable valvetrain.

Ask yourself this, "If I make the valve stem height taller, what do I have to do to the rocker pivot"? The logical answer is, "I have to raise it by moving the shaft". But, the valve is on an 18 degree angle, so then you would recognize that the shaft and valve were now closer together. You would then tell yourself, "I also need to move the shaft away from the valve to maintain the proper spacing, or I need a shorter rocker". All these conclusions are from the application of logic.

Now look at what Indy has done. They put a longer valve in the head, and left the cast shaft stands in the same place (shaft too low). Now the nose of the rocker is jacked way up in the air, and the roller is barely on the valve tip. Their fix was to make the rocker longer, when they should have made the heads with relocated rocker stands, to at least get them close to where they are supposed to be, because the current geometry is attrocious. Your best bet is to get a paired rocker system ($$$$) from T&D, and set them up per instructions. You will have to mill off the shaft stands, and use pushrod oiling, or a spray bar, but you should only have to spend the money once.

You can't just find a rocker that bolts to the cast stands, and has good geometry, because no such thing exists. Mainly, because it is mathmatically not feasible. The rocker design is only part of the story.

I hate be a cold shower, but I'm only telling you the truth. Sometimes the BS sounds better.
 
B3 is giving you the straight poop. When those heads cam out I called them and asked how the hell would I get the rocker geometry correct without milling the stands and using blocks to correct he.

I was told I was ignorant and hung up on.

There are more Chrysler's out there with jacked up geometry that you can count. I'd dare say MOST are screwed up. Convincing the owners of the fact has proven to almost impossible.

Thanks again Mike for the education and products.
 
yellow rose said:
B3 is giving you the straight poop. When those heads cam out I called them and asked how the hell would I get the rocker geometry correct without milling the stands and using blocks to correct he.

I was told I was ignorant and hung up on.

There are more Chrysler's out there with jacked up geometry that you can count. I'd dare say MOST are screwed up. Convincing the owners of the fact has proven to almost impossible.

Thanks again Mike for the education and products.
Click to expand...
Sounds like you were Flagled. Shocking!
 
Here are some pics of a set of small block heads I picked up, stands milled, shafts moved back and up, still uses shaft oiling.

006.JPG


ta1.jpg


ta2.jpg
 
It depends how much the shaft has to be moved, and how long the rocker is, whether you can keep shaft oiling or not. Not likely with a rocker that is almost .200" too long, and a valve that is .150"-.200" longer than stock, IIRC. You would have the pushrod through the intake face of the head with that much offset.
 
B3RE said:
Have you determined why it broke a rocker? You can spend a pile of money on rockers and still break them, or something else, if they aren't set up properly.

When Indy puts a much longer than stock valve in a small block head, and then makes the rocker way too long so it can reach the valve tip, it's going to cause problems at some point. It's a geometry nightmare.

I'm sorry to say, there is no "cheap" here, because "right" would cost more than the $ for the T&D or Jesel rockers. There IS going to be machine work involved to do it right.
Click to expand...

B3RE said:
Any rocker has a fatigue life, and that life is shortened by unnecessary abuse from an unstable valvetrain.

Ask yourself this, "If I make the valve stem height taller, what do I have to do to the rocker pivot"? The logical answer is, "I have to raise it by moving the shaft". But, the valve is on an 18 degree angle, so then you would recognize that the shaft and valve were now closer together. You would then tell yourself, "I also need to move the shaft away from the valve to maintain the proper spacing, or I need a shorter rocker". All these conclusions are from the application of logic.

Now look at what Indy has done. They put a longer valve in the head, and left the cast shaft stands in the same place (shaft too low). Now the nose of the rocker is jacked way up in the air, and the roller is barely on the valve tip. Their fix was to make the rocker longer, when they should have made the heads with relocated rocker stands, to at least get them close to where they are supposed to be, because the current geometry is attrocious. Your best bet is to get a paired rocker system ($$$$) from T&D, and set them up per instructions. You will have to mill off the shaft stands, and use pushrod oiling, or a spray bar, but you should only have to spend the money once.

You can't just find a rocker that bolts to the cast stands, and has good geometry, because no such thing exists. Mainly, because it is mathmatically not feasible. The rocker design is only part of the story.

I hate be a cold shower, but I'm only telling you the truth. Sometimes the BS sounds better.
Click to expand...

Thank goodness there is someone here who knows what they are talking about.
 
IQ52 said:
Thank goodness there is someone here who knows what they are talking about.
Click to expand...
Not sure I know how to take that Jim, because I know you know what you're talking about.

I was curious about the valve lengths, so I looked them up. I was off a bit, as they are more like .350" or so longer than stock. I realize the port is raised, and I don't have a -1 handy to measure stem height, but I know it's hard enough to fit a common length roller rocker with a longer valve without having extra rocker length to deal with. I like a longer rocker, but it has to fit the confines of the head when the geometry is correct.
 
Dang, my head isn't working today! Roughly .400"- .450" longer than stock.
 
brian6pac said:
Here are some pics of a set of small block heads I picked up, stands milled, shafts moved back and up, still uses shaft oiling.

View attachment 1715052334

View attachment 1715052336

View attachment 1715052337
Click to expand...


I used to do this when the customer would let me. Most guys don't want to pay for that. And, by the time you are done, you are now close to the cost of W-2 heads.

Thankfully B3 made his system so you can economically correct your geometry without milling the stands and using blocks.
 
B3RE said:
Sounds like you were Flagled. Shocking!
Click to expand...


Yup and it wasn't the last. I had a customer bring me a -1 deal with the Flagle intake. It sat in the box until I had the heads done then I too it out and about fell over. The plenum was horrible at best. So I get Russ on the phone and email him pictures of what it looked like, he's says "yep, that's how we do it...that's what it looks like". So I said (without thinking) "how the hell do you get any power of it like that". He says "moron" and the next thing I hear is CLICK.

It's hard to tell a customer his brand new intake manifold needs $800.00 of porting. Thankfully the customer let me do it.

Indy is one of a kind for sure.
 
Thanks B3 I am going to relay all this info to the Bro and hope it sinks in. Thanks for explaining and now I get why they fail. Always learning on A bodies.
 
B3RE said:
Not sure I know how to take that Jim, because I know you know what you're talking about.

I was curious about the valve lengths, so I looked them up. I was off a bit, as they are more like .350" or so longer than stock. I realize the port is raised, and I don't have a -1 handy to measure stem height, but I know it's hard enough to fit a common length roller rocker with a longer valve without having extra rocker length to deal with. I like a longer rocker, but it has to fit the confines of the head when the geometry is correct.
Click to expand...

I was meaning you knew what you were talking about. I remember, years ago it seems like, you were trying to get the principles across to some knot heads over on Moparts. I had figured out in 2010 some of the things you were trying to explain to them in 2015-16. It just wasn't clicking for them and you were being pounded on.

I have been listening and continue to learn from you.

Thank you very much.
 
yellow rose said:
I used to do this when the customer would let me. Most guys don't want to pay for that. And, by the time you are done, you are now close to the cost of W-2 heads.

Thankfully B3 made his system so you can economically correct your geometry without milling the stands and using blocks.
Click to expand...


The valves in these heads are .100 longer and they were made in feb 69, no w2's yet
but they will work for me just fine. I'm sure they were big money back in 69 as they were custom made from a casting before any machine work was done.
 
IQ52 said:
I was meaning you knew what you were talking about. I remember, years ago it seems like, you were trying to get the principles across to some knot heads over on Moparts. I had figured out in 2010 some of the things you were trying to explain to them in 2015-16. It just wasn't clicking for them and you were being pounded on.

I have been listening and continue to learn from you.

Thank you very much.
Click to expand...
Jim,

I'm absolutely flattered and humbled to think you would be learning from me. I'm thinking it's more likely the other way around.

Anyway, after the pounding you mentioned, I tend to read between the lines sometimes, thinking there might be sarcasm hidden in there. That's why I clarified before I kicked the dog, screamed at the wife, and burned the neighbors house down, lol. My early Moparts experience certainly changed my naive perception of a lot of car guys.

And no, thank you!
 
moparspares said:
Thanks B3 I am going to relay all this info to the Bro and hope it sinks in. Thanks for explaining and now I get why they fail. Always learning on A bodies.
Click to expand...
You're welcome. If you have a machine shop, you can finagle and modify things to make them work sometimes. For the average Joe, he's SOL when it comes to parts that don't play nice together.
 
B3RE said:
Jim,

I'm absolutely flattered and humbled to think you would be learning from me. I'm thinking it's more likely the other way around.

Anyway, after the pounding you mentioned, I tend to read between the lines sometimes, thinking there might be sarcasm hidden in there. That's why I clarified before I kicked the dog, screamed at the wife, and burned the neighbors house down, lol. My early Moparts experience certainly changed my naive perception of a lot of car guys.

And no, thank you!
Click to expand...


See, I normally do it the other way. I set the house on fire, kick the dog and yell at the wife.

Then I go back out to the shop, pull out the cot and bed down for the night.

I know my place.
 
yellow rose said:
See, I normally do it the other way. I set the house on fire, kick the dog and yell at the wife.

Then I go back out to the shop, pull out the cot and bed down for the night.

I know my place.
Click to expand...
Lol! That's pretty darn funny.
 
brian6pac said:
The valves in these heads are .100 longer and they were made in feb 69, no w2's yet
but they will work for me just fine. I'm sure they were big money back in 69 as they were custom made from a casting before any machine work was done.
Click to expand...
Hard to tell from the pic, but it looks like they have a smaller (like 5/16) valve stem size too. Unique piece for sure. Depending on your final combination, they still might need a little adjustment to the geometry, although I doubt it would be much.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
-

Back
Top