Lumber question for those in the building trades

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Kern Dog

Kern Dog

Build your car to handle.
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Hello,
I retired last year with 36 years in construction. I was a framing Carpenter and built lots of houses, schools and commercial buildings.
One thing that nobody could ever answer was the following:
With 2x4s and 2x6s, they were always 1/2" undersize in each dimension.... 1 1/2" x 3 1/2" and so on. With 2 x 8 and larger, the depth got progressively shorter.
The 2 x 8s often were just 7 3/8"- 1/4" and the 2 x 10s were often 9 1/4" maybe even 9 1/8".
Why? How is it that they were able to cheat builders out of the additional depth? Is it that it is a better grade of lumber than before where that additional 3/8" didn't matter structurally?
 
No different than getting less and paying more at the grocery store. GREED. Plain and simple.
This has always happened since the beginning of mankind trading goods and services.:soapbox:
 
I don't think that is it.
I agree that greed is an issue but there is more to this than that.
 
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Well, as you know, back in the day 2x4 were actually 2x4" but were rough cut.
They lost their dimensions as a result of cleaning them up. Any more loss is greed.
Get that 1 extra 2x4 out of a log and that is Proffit.
Same goes for plywood thickness.
 
Didn't the lumber back then have tighter grain too? I would think a 1-1/2" x 3-1/2" board back then would probably be much stronger than today's lumber just because of that.
 
mopowers said:
Didn't the lumber back then have tighter grain too? I would think a 1-1/2" x 3-1/2" board back then would probably be much stronger than today's lumber just because of that.
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Back in the 1800`s early 1900`s a lot of hardwoods were used.
Now all we get is crap pine, unless you want to pay up. Pine is expensive enough. Try pricing hardwoods. :eek:
 
It is because of shrinkage. The nominal dimensions are for green, rough lumber as cut at the saw mill. As it loses moisture, a piece of lumber will shrink on a percentage basis, say 6%. 6% of 8" or 10" is more than 6% of 4" or 6". The attached chart shows Doug Fir. Others woods shrink more. So the board shrinks when air drying/kiln drying and then gets planed to final size.

But everyone is also right that old 2x4's used to measure 1 5/8 x 3 5/8. Now they are 1 1/2 x 3 1/2.

IMG_2359.jpg
 
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They just don't build trees like they use to! Now that they're farmed, fast growth species and growth rings wider and wider. The building code is going to need to be adjusted for span as todays wood supply isn't as strong as it use to be. The boards aren't shrinking, they're being cut smaller to get a board out of a 10" tree and then dressed.
 
My in-laws owned a house in Tracy that they were selling back 20 years ago or so. The house was built in the 1990s. When the house was inspected there was a minor roof timber that had cracked. It was a 2x3, yes a 2x3. In the middle of the length there had been a knot that was at least 1.5" in diameter.. I went up with a jack, a length or 2x4 and a bunch of screws. Fixed it right up...Maybe a 2x3 was sufficient in that location, but not with a knot that was more than half the width of the board.
 
A lot of kids have urban and abandon house explorations I`ll watch. I dig seeing the woodworking in those old 1800`s houses. I like seeing the different ways of the roof framing construction.
 
You're buying finished lumber. Those are rough cut dimensions.
 
My understanding is when we helped Europe rebuild we retooled for their metric specs and never reverted back to our original setup.

EDIT. Metric not be right, but I'm pretty sure it's a euro spec.
 
Mostly greed and tree size. Take a tree you can get 10 full 2" 2x4s from then take a half inch off each length and width. Ya get a couple more. Do that 2000 times a day. It adds up quickly. It does minimize what would potentially be ran through the chipper as waste I guess.
 
1/4 pound burger*

* before cooking?
 
Shrinkage and regionality. East coast lumber tended to be even skimpier because it often needed to be transported farther.
With today's more connected markets and out if touch retailers and customers (here's looking st you, tiktok and pinterest), stuff intended for the east coast might get sold in the west.
Plus lots of lumber products are now often imported and so will be made to the absolute min to fit more on a ship.

 
S E Texas friggin Piney Woods we call it.
One of dozens of mills down the road. Pine logs are hauled in there, all go to 2 x 4s there. They are pilled out there till to go to the saw with water being sprinkled on the for days, weeks. Green logs getting wetter (greener).
All cut into 2 4 x 8s there and stacked and sit there till they reach the desired dryness. Then plained. The results are dimensional lumber that has lost some dimenstions!! Then shipped out.
 
Cuda416 said:
My understanding is when we helped Europe rebuild we retooled for their metric specs and never reverted back to our original setup.

EDIT. Metric not be right, but I'm pretty sure it's a euro spec.
Click to expand...
1707339661059.png
 
I really do not know how much green yellow pine shrinks... interesting question. I have built lots of horse stalls out of just milled oak and I can tell you it will shrink a lot!!!!!!
I have torn down, years ago lots of l barns and houses built early 1900s/ Built out of yellow pine and oak. It was all full dimension or a little bigger and not plained for sure and cut with the old circular blade. Still old mills in Mo. using such and not a band saw.
 
We always got units of 2 x 4 studs cut to length with the ends painted to reduce shrinkage and evaporation. They never seemed to shrink by length because of that. The 8', 10' and longer units of 2 x 4s, etc were left unpainted on the ends. That was what we used for door openings, window openings and blocking. Losing a fraction of an inch there didn't affect their value.
One time we got a shipment of UTILITY grade lumber that wasn't consistently stamped as such. It was not noticed right away. I framed stem walls with it for a stem wall/stepped foundation and ran TJI joists on it, then plywood decking. The foreman walked by the row of houses and saw the Utility grade lumber bundle opened and partially used, then asked around to see who used it. The whole she-bang had to get ripped out and dumped. Utility grade can only be used in non structural applications like temporary bracing and blocking. That unit got shipped to us by accident.
Another time, our company had contracts to build houses for the same Housing contractor but in different parts of town. In the south side we framed and framed with virtually NO conflicts or problems. We sent guys over to get started on another job that was in another county. We used the same grade of lumber as before but it turned out this new town had stricter requirements not clearly defined in the contracts or building plans. 3 houses were framed with sheeted roofs when the inspector came to look at the nailing on the roof and caught the mistake. 3 two story houses had to be torn down. Watching a forklift like this one:

1707346013851.png


....push over and smash the framing was both intense and sad at the same time.
 
diymirage said:
View attachment 1716203879
Click to expand...

Fascinating.... oh wait...

Fun fact, not all countries who claim adherence to the metric system actually use it in its entirety.


Ask a brit how far it is from London to North Yorkshire.... you'll get a distance in MILES. Yes, the road signs all use MILES... so anyway...

So instead of responding with some stupid meme, I looked into it for a few seconds and realized the story I was told seems to be wrong. Oh well. Don't really care honestly. Not as much you seemed to as you were so moved to post something that helped so much in the way of an actual explanation. Bravo..

Anyway, this seems legit.

www.harvarddesignmagazine.org

Nominal Versus Actual: A History of the 2x4 - Harvard Design Magazine

The ubiquitous lumber product known as the 2×4 does not, in fact, measure two inches thick by four inches wide. […]
www.harvarddesignmagazine.org www.harvarddesignmagazine.org
 
The good news is that fractions keep millennials from building your house...:p...the bad news is that in a few years you'll only be able to find uno, dos, tres tape measures.
 
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