Making a little progress on the W5 engine for the Dakota
- Thread starter tvt59
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B3422w5
Well-Known Member
You need to
Most of those guys are running W8/9 stuff, or have swapped over to gen 3 stuff.
I agree with you, going from 700 to 800 hundred is a huge deal.
Regards aversion to running offset heads..what are you talking about?
See my screen name.. I have had it 30 years nearly. I ran an offset head WAY longer than I have anything else. A W5 head. That’s an offset head.
My motor ultimately went 140 mph at 3220 pounds with crude( 002/003) leafs. I know of nobody I can think of that made significantly more power at the track than that with W5’s.
That said, the OP has a unicorn deal he has put together. It isn’t an everyday build. The dyno says 100 more horsepower than anything else I have heard of W5 related that’s been down a track. Ever.
reread what I said. I said 97% of guys, even racers are more than happy with 650 or 700 horse. To go above that then requires lots more money, fancy blocks, offset heads, etc, etc.. and that market is extremely limited.
Most of those guys are running W8/9 stuff, or have swapped over to gen 3 stuff.
I agree with you, going from 700 to 800 hundred is a huge deal.
Regards aversion to running offset heads..what are you talking about?
See my screen name.. I have had it 30 years nearly. I ran an offset head WAY longer than I have anything else. A W5 head. That’s an offset head.
My motor ultimately went 140 mph at 3220 pounds with crude( 002/003) leafs. I know of nobody I can think of that made significantly more power at the track than that with W5’s.
That said, the OP has a unicorn deal he has put together. It isn’t an everyday build. The dyno says 100 more horsepower than anything else I have heard of W5 related that’s been down a track. Ever.
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Let me remind you that every time an offset rocker head is discussed you chime in with what a Bloomer head can do.
What it can’t do is duplicate what other heads can do and that’s because of its rocker arrangement.
It’s the offset rocker that everyone says is why they won’t use these heads.
It’s makes ZERO sense.
Look what Chad Spierer has done with decades of work on a 23 degree Chevy head.
What if someone like Brett Miller spent some time on the W5 as the bridge head between stock rocker arms and offset rocker arms?
I’m saying you can start thinking 900 plus hp on a W5 head fairly easily. I guess I should say comparatively easily.
There is a reason why Chrysler guys are always sucking hind tit. Let’s look at them.
The small block Chrysler has:
A taller deck,
A wider bore spacing
Bigger lifters
Higher cam height
Wider pan rails
All that is premium today because everyone loves long stroke ****. You get none of that with a SBC.
Guys should be stepping on their dicks to build the small block Chrysler to replace their SBC’s but because we (Chrysler guys I’m talking about) spent the 80’s forward preferring junk over power.
B3422w5
Well-Known Member
You’re right about all of that. The reason I talk about the Bloomer heads is because for most everybody in this community, they solve the issues of what the vast majority of people here and elsewhere want. An easily 9 second capable bolt on head that is ready to run and accepts standard bolt on stuff. Until them, we didn’t have that, in large measure.
Offset head stuff is capable of more power. Heck yea. But it’s a MUCH smaller audience, and WAY more expensive. Mopar guys are by and large cheap. Just reality.
I love hearing about such stuff like the Victor heads( great head) and others, believe me. It’s just out of reach or interest of most guys in this community. Time you buy a block to support such stuff, 1500-2000 rockers, get headers to work, intakes, spend thousands on the heads and equipping them and porting them, it’s not a big market.and then the Gen 3 stuff keeps getting more popular. It’s a losing battle. Fun to talk about, but in reality not a lot of guys actually going down the track on here with such stuff
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I'll post some videos tomorrow. But we're really happy with the W5 results. I'll make a post of how this came about. As long as Brett's ok with it. We've made 30 pulls with it everything looks good. Got the EFI on it and put it on alcohol.
dusterbing the peace
FABO pyrite member
Well done!!!
How high up did you end up running it?
Also-looks like Summit has Victors in stock in case anyone wants a set of those offset rocker heads that “no one” seems to want
CHRYSLER Edelbrock 61729 Edelbrock Victor Series Race Cylinder Heads | Summit Racing
7800 on gasoline and 7500 on alcohol. He was really surprised that it picked up with the alcohol and EFI. But to be honest he didn't tune the carb at all.
dusterbing the peace
FABO pyrite member
I don’t know much about alcohol, why doesn’t it spin higher? Not enough fuel supply to meet the demand, or..?
dusterbing the peace
FABO pyrite member
I’m just hoping for information, not trying to start anything. Can I PM you?
9secRR
Well-Known Member
i'm not suprised. alcohol for the win!
I'll be honest with you. I don't know the answer to this. But I know that in most applications alcohol makes more torque than gasoline and at a lower rpm. Brett was surprised that the W5 engine made more hp and torque on alcohol. And it Made the most power with only 28 degrees of timing.
Holy crap, that's amazing!!!
I wanted to build something different. I tried to get several people to do these heads for me. I had no luck except for Larry Smith. He was excited about doing them. But before he'd commit he wanted to inspect them in person. After he inspected them he agreed to port them and do the valve job and springs set up
He got them ported and before he could finish the valve job he passed away. A few weeks later his family contacted me and said they'd find my stuff and get it back to me. I think that a Mr March was instrumental in me getting my stuff back.
Then I had to find someone to finish them. Again no luck finding someone. In the meantime Brett Miller posted that he was looking for a single W5 head for his head project. I had two more sets so I gave him one. In one of our conversations I asked him who I could get to do these W5 heads for my Dakota. He said he didn't do them anymore but he'd help me out since I helped him.
He looked at them and said that Larry Smith had done a wonderful job with the porting and that he didn't recommend touching that portion of the heads. He asked me if he could try something else on my heads. I said sure your the expert. That's when he put the smaller exhaust valve and the BIG intake valve. Man it really woke the heads up. So he finished them up.
So he sent them back to me. I've never worked with a R3 block before. So I'm asking him questions about all the engine stuff. I asked him about this big place in the front China wall looked like a fitting went there. I told him that I'd been told to block that off and just use the rest of the oiling system as it is. He said that wouldn't be the best idea because the oil has to make too many 90 degree turns. He asked me what I was going to do about the lifters. I told him I was just Planning on running some bam bushed solid roller lifters. He said you need to bush the lifter bores. My guy here in Tuscaloosa couldn't do that. So I found a guy in Pensacola FL who said that he was familiar with the R3 and could bush the lifter bores. It sat at his shop for a good while and he had not gotten to it. Brett contacted me to check on how the project was going I told him the situation. He said what are you going to do about pistons and cam. I said I have a cam picked out and I'm not sure about the pistons. He said go get that thing and send it to me. I'll help you with it.
So I picked up all my stuff and sent it to Randy Harshman the person who does the machining for Brett. Brett asked me what I wanted to do with it. I said that I always wanted a 3.79 stroke high revving engine. He said for what I'm doing that would be a waste. He said that we need a 4 125 crank. I said I really want it to rev and not be a truck motor. He just laughed and said trust me you'll be happy and it won't sound like a truck motor. But we did compromise. I had to nice 4.00 stroke K1 knife edged crank and rods. So the money I saved on the crank and rods was spent on a really nice set of Ross custom pistons. He spec'ed out a cam for EFI and alcohol. We decided to use his oil pan and external oil-vacuum pump. He's calling me and texting regularly telling me how excited he is about doing this odd ball stuff. I'm getting a real kick out of hearing his enthusiasm.
We get the motor together and he runs it on the dyno with a gas carb. And it does really well. All along he tells me he hopes that it makes 760hp. I say that I'll be happy with anything over 720. He tells me that it's not liking much timing that Larry Smith had hand done the combustion chambers and that they are really good. So as you know it made 824hp on gasoline. He tells me it's probably going to loose about 20hp on alcohol. Because really efficient combustion chambers don't normally do well with alcohol. They put the EFI on and the alcohol fuel and it picked up 15hp and 15 ft lbs torque and only 28 degrees timing so he and I are both extatic .
Randy and Brett have been great to work with! I've really been fortunate on both of the last two engines . This one and the one in my AMX Rod and Vic Bloomer helped me a lot on that engine. It makes impressive power with conventional heads. It's been 5.84 at 116.6 mph at 2830 lbs. The wallace power speed calculator says that it takes 707hp to do that.
So the morel of these stores are that there's a lot of good people in the Mopar community and I've been very fortunate to work with some of them.
He got them ported and before he could finish the valve job he passed away. A few weeks later his family contacted me and said they'd find my stuff and get it back to me. I think that a Mr March was instrumental in me getting my stuff back.
Then I had to find someone to finish them. Again no luck finding someone. In the meantime Brett Miller posted that he was looking for a single W5 head for his head project. I had two more sets so I gave him one. In one of our conversations I asked him who I could get to do these W5 heads for my Dakota. He said he didn't do them anymore but he'd help me out since I helped him.
He looked at them and said that Larry Smith had done a wonderful job with the porting and that he didn't recommend touching that portion of the heads. He asked me if he could try something else on my heads. I said sure your the expert. That's when he put the smaller exhaust valve and the BIG intake valve. Man it really woke the heads up. So he finished them up.
So he sent them back to me. I've never worked with a R3 block before. So I'm asking him questions about all the engine stuff. I asked him about this big place in the front China wall looked like a fitting went there. I told him that I'd been told to block that off and just use the rest of the oiling system as it is. He said that wouldn't be the best idea because the oil has to make too many 90 degree turns. He asked me what I was going to do about the lifters. I told him I was just Planning on running some bam bushed solid roller lifters. He said you need to bush the lifter bores. My guy here in Tuscaloosa couldn't do that. So I found a guy in Pensacola FL who said that he was familiar with the R3 and could bush the lifter bores. It sat at his shop for a good while and he had not gotten to it. Brett contacted me to check on how the project was going I told him the situation. He said what are you going to do about pistons and cam. I said I have a cam picked out and I'm not sure about the pistons. He said go get that thing and send it to me. I'll help you with it.
So I picked up all my stuff and sent it to Randy Harshman the person who does the machining for Brett. Brett asked me what I wanted to do with it. I said that I always wanted a 3.79 stroke high revving engine. He said for what I'm doing that would be a waste. He said that we need a 4 125 crank. I said I really want it to rev and not be a truck motor. He just laughed and said trust me you'll be happy and it won't sound like a truck motor. But we did compromise. I had to nice 4.00 stroke K1 knife edged crank and rods. So the money I saved on the crank and rods was spent on a really nice set of Ross custom pistons. He spec'ed out a cam for EFI and alcohol. We decided to use his oil pan and external oil-vacuum pump. He's calling me and texting regularly telling me how excited he is about doing this odd ball stuff. I'm getting a real kick out of hearing his enthusiasm.
We get the motor together and he runs it on the dyno with a gas carb. And it does really well. All along he tells me he hopes that it makes 760hp. I say that I'll be happy with anything over 720. He tells me that it's not liking much timing that Larry Smith had hand done the combustion chambers and that they are really good. So as you know it made 824hp on gasoline. He tells me it's probably going to loose about 20hp on alcohol. Because really efficient combustion chambers don't normally do well with alcohol. They put the EFI on and the alcohol fuel and it picked up 15hp and 15 ft lbs torque and only 28 degrees timing so he and I are both extatic .
Randy and Brett have been great to work with! I've really been fortunate on both of the last two engines . This one and the one in my AMX Rod and Vic Bloomer helped me a lot on that engine. It makes impressive power with conventional heads. It's been 5.84 at 116.6 mph at 2830 lbs. The wallace power speed calculator says that it takes 707hp to do that.
So the morel of these stores are that there's a lot of good people in the Mopar community and I've been very fortunate to work with some of them.
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David left us some time ago….. damn cancer. He was a top notch human being and I was fortunate to have crossed paths with him in Vegas racing.
B3422w5
Well-Known Member
That sucks, seemed like a nice guy and excellent small block guy. Prayers to his family
Good move on the alcohol cam. I know guys that think that fuel doesn't matter in cam selection. But it certainly does.
That explains why the carb/gas is down a bit. It should be because the cam timing for alcohol. That also explains why it made more rpm on gas.
Very, very impressive. I keep saying that head can make big power rather easily. If Brett or someone could swing some Chinese castings done with just two upgrades they'd really make some smoke.
I'm really pulling for Brett on this. He's a really good guy and has been really good to me. He only does this as a hobby. He works a lot of hours with his full time job and has a family.
In the grand scheme of things I'm a nobody, but he took time to help me. I'm sure that he could have made more money working on someone else 40k W8 engine. But he said that he got a kick out of working on this project.
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It's good to see people help others out. There have been a few people on this forum that have helped me out more than the guys I race with. God knows I have pestered you quite a lot.
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