Miloon Drive

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Ironmike

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Need a new bronze gear for my smallblock and saw Milodon has the gear and shaft, ready to go. Didn't feel like the whole hassle of removing the old gear and installing new one on my shaft.

Have some credit from Jegs, so I thought I might just buy it, but It doesn't look very sturdy.

It's Milodon #21535. Like to hear some thoughts before I pull the trigger.
 
Keep in mind that the bronze gear is a consumable item, I run one in my bracket car and have a "just in case" spare in my tool box. I wouldn't run one on a street car because the gear wears quickly. On my car (race only) the gear has lasted a good amount of time, but it is showing signs of wear. If you are going to run a bronze gear on the street, be sure to open your oil filter after an oil change to see how much "glitter" is in the filter media.
 
You should also run a collar on your distributor shaft to reduce the up and down climb of the gear on the cam. It really helps to reduce wear, which is inevitable regardless.
 
I've been running bronze gears on the street for years.......ever since I went roller. Yeah, I have a few used ones in a drawer. Big deal. I check them and replace when needed. Just looking to buy a "drop in" this time.
I don't like the fact that the Milodon has no taper to the pump drive end. It seems to me a easy spot for breakage.

FYI you can't drop a melonized unit into a used cam. Read all the instructions. I have one I bought years ago and found out it's a no go, once you have used bronze.
 
I've been running bronze gears on the street for years.......ever since I went roller. Yeah, I have a few used ones in a drawer. Big deal. I check them and replace when needed. Just looking to buy a "drop in" this time.
I don't like the fact that the Milodon has no taper to the pump drive end. It seems to me a easy spot for breakage.

FYI you can't drop a melonized unit into a used cam. Read all the instructions. I have one I bought years ago and found out it's a no go, once you have used bronze.
What happens.....the bronze leaves a 'footprint' and the melonized gear gets killed by it? Can you replace a melonized unit with a new melonized unit?
 
[1] There are 'poly' gears for some engines, not sure if for Chrys. A company called BOP Engineering makes some. They work with any cam.
[2] Where are the instructions that say you cannot use the Melonized gear with a cam that used the bronze gear.
[3] The collar on the dist shaft is NOT there to stop upward thrust. Do you think a thin plastic collar would be used if that was the case. The thrust is DOWN, caused by the oil pump loading the gear. That is why the bushing in the block has a shoulder on it, to take the thrust.
 
[2] Where are the instructions that say you cannot use the Melonized gear with a cam that used the bronze gear.

From the above link in post #3.

NOTE: If you have any residue from a bronze gear on your camshaft gear, it MUST be removed or else it will act like a lapping material and wipe out both gears! Can you say "I screwed up?" $$$ sure you can!
 
[1] There are 'poly' gears for some engines, not sure if for Chrys. A company called BOP Engineering makes some. They work with any cam.
[2] Where are the instructions that say you cannot use the Melonized gear with a cam that used the bronze gear.
[3] The collar on the dist shaft is NOT there to stop upward thrust. Do you think a thin plastic collar would be used if that was the case. The thrust is DOWN, caused by the oil pump loading the gear. That is why the bushing in the block has a shoulder on it, to take the thrust.
There is no locking collar from the factory, and the gear can ride up and down during acceleration and deceleration of the valve train. Yes, the vast majority of the downward contact the intermediate shaft has is on the bushing in the block. The gear pattern pushes it down into that bushing by design.

The tang at the bottom of the distributor drive shaft, by design, typically does not bottom out in the slot on the intermediary slot. If it did, it would cause wear to the distributor and the plastic collar you mentioned, but since it doesn't, there's quite a bit of room for upward travel of the intermediate shaft. Which does happen during the dynamic action of this style of gear set, the thrust motion of the camshaft in the motor and the thrust action of the intermediate shaft on its bushing. I believe this is refereed to as backlash or something else. This dynamic movement of the gear set components is why roller cams control in AND out directional changes during running with both a thrust surface and a cam button. Cams should just be thrust backwards because of the thrust angle on the cam gear, but thy can move both ways when the engine is accelerating and de-accelerating.

This results in changes to the contact pattern on the gear sets. That should be and can be best controlled, especially with roller cams, for multiple reasons including lifter/lobe ride patterns, but also controlling the position of the cam gear. That's why the backlash on rearend gear sets is set-up so carefully to avoid excessive play for either gear. The ideal scenario is where both the camshaft's fore and aft movement AND the intermediate shafts up and down movement is carefully controlled being sure to allow enough freeplay for an adequate oil film especially on the intermediate shaft to bushing surface. With the manifold and valley pan removed, I use a feeler gauge under the intermediate shaft gear, install the locking collar on the distributor shaft just snuggly and then bolt down the distributor. This sets the clearance and results in a much more stable position of the intermediate shaft gear in relation to the cam gear.

As evidence, look at the wear on a bronze gear where there is no collar on the distributor shaft, versus the wear pattern on a bronze gear that has it's upward travel limited by collar affixed to the shaft.

It's significant, and not controlling this freeplay greatly increases wear on the softer bronze gear. Observing the odd wear pattern on my first bronze gear is how I figured this out. It was before cell phones though, so I didn't take pictures.

1_2_Shaft_Collar_800.jpg
 

From the above link in post #3.

NOTE: If you have any residue from a bronze gear on your camshaft gear, it MUST be removed or else it will act like a lapping material and wipe out both gears! Can you say "I screwed up?" $$$ sure you can!
Thank you for posting that!
 
I use a common bushing from a hardware store with a set screw. Red Loctite then peen the screw a wack or 2. I like .003 clearance between the bushing and the gear.
 
So........ back to my original post. Would you trust this Milodon unit with 600+ horsepower?
 
That is right, no locking collar from the factory. And millions of engines from the factory performed flawlessly & had no issues without the collar.................

As I said previously, the oil pump load on the shaft COMBINED with the direction of the helix on the pump drive/cam forces, the pump drive downwards. As long as the oil pump is pumping oil, the thrust remains downwards. If the pump stops pumping oil, the load is removed......but without oil there are probably other things to worry about...
 
That is right, no locking collar from the factory. And millions of engines from the factory performed flawlessly & had no issues without the collar.................

As I said previously, the oil pump load on the shaft COMBINED with the direction of the helix on the pump drive/cam forces, the pump drive downwards. As long as the oil pump is pumping oil, the thrust remains downwards. If the pump stops pumping oil, the load is removed......but without oil there are probably other things to worry about...
Yes, measurable spark scatter from the up and down movement of the intermediate shaft is a myth (even though it can be virtually eliminated by adding a collar to control the range of motion of the intermediate shaft), and cams always riding on their thrust faces and don't need to have cam buttons to control forward movement. After all, no cam buttons came from the factory, so should everyone should stop using them too?
 
There aren't many other options, and I've never read about anyone having a failure other than the short life of the bronze gear. I believe that's the same unit in my 408 Magnum. It does drive a HV pump.
 
I run the Milodon unit in my 422 stroker with a Melling HV pump in my street car. Spin it to 6500 often. It only has around 500 miles on it but I already replaced the gear as it was showing more wear than I was comfortable with. Replaced it with an old CAT gear recently. The shaft showed no signs of wear whatsoever.
 
JBC,
The thrust button is used with roller cams. That is because with FT cams, the lobe taper is in a direction that drives the cam backwards against the THRUST face on the block, from the action of the lifters spinning on the lobes. Roller cams do not have tapered lobes.....
Read post #14 again.
 
As eluded to above, roller cams require a cam button to limit forward cam movement, because of design differences from flat tappet designs. However this doesn't limit the excessive up and down movement of the intermediate shaft . The resultant movement up and down of the intermediate shaft as RPM and duty cycles become more intense can lead to significant spark scatter because of the timing changes as the intermediate shaft gear accelerates and decelerates as it moves up and down due to the angled gear pattern. In other words, The distributor gear is driven by the camshaft. Any longitudinal movement of the cam or vertical movement of the intermediate shaft gear will cause timing fluctuations, leading to poor engine performance.

I've had this issue spark scatter with both flat tappet and roller cams in addition to accelerated bronze gear wear until I added the locking collar, which limits the upward movement of the intermediate shaft. It eliminates the spark scatter and extended the life of the bronze gear. If the intermediate shaft never moved or oscillated upward during operation, there would be no measurable difference by adding a travel-limiting locking collar. Right?

This is of course entirely optional if you don't carefully measure you timing at higher rpm, see the spark scatter or timing fluctuation and/ or recognize the unusual pattern wear on the gear.

20200718_171815 (Large).jpg
 
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I don't like the fact that the Milodon has no taper to the pump drive end. It seems to me a easy spot for breakage.
This was the primary selling point of the MP intermediate shafts that MP used to sell.

Stolen from FABO in an image search
1760638926726.png
 
JBC,
The thrust button is used with roller cams. That is because with FT cams, the lobe taper is in a direction that drives the cam backwards against the THRUST face on the block, from the action of the lifters spinning on the lobes. Roller cams do not have tapered lobes.....
Read post #14 again.
never used any thrust button on any roller engine I've built. NEVER. I've got one out there with 500ish 1/4 mile passes and another with 21,000 hard street miles. Not to mention my personal engine with 6,000 ish and beat like a mule, every time it goes out.

Mopar LA thrust button? Gimme a break dude.
 
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That's exactly the shaft in there now. That long taper just seems much stronger that the immediate taper of the milodon unit. I guess I'll just replace the gear as usual.

Thanks for the pic!
That taper is just a placebo effect. The shaft will be weakest at it's smallest diameter or where there is a stress rising feature, like a sharp corner. A gradual taper or 1/8" radius will be equally strong. Definitely use the one you are more confident in though.
 
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