More valve seal fun....NOT!

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pishta

I know I'm right....
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So, between the 2 type of seals, umbrella and posi-seal, which one is better (Im guessing the posi-seal) and how does the umbrella seal even work? The umbrella seal moves up and down with the valve while the posi is seated on the guide with friction or a groove. I seemed to have ordered the wrong year posi-seals ('83) and now have a more or less umbrella type seal that doesnt press fit my 72 head with these floating seals but the company that makes them (Enginetech) lists this part number ENGINETECH S433Vfor both my 83 and 72 Mazda year heads? It is the only part number on Rockauto that is the same for both as all the other brand numbers are different for the 2 year head. The ones I took off the 83 were metal on metal, a straight friction seal, tight as F. The 72 I finally got ONE off of are a rubber ID and the same metal OD (where the torch trick works to melt/soften/release them with a pair of pliers). The 83 wont secure on the thinner guide of the 72, turning it into an umbrella style seal. SO...how do the umbrella Slant Six style polyacrylide (SP) floaters even work? Do they just cover the valve to guide seam so oil is diverted away and it does not pool around this seam? The posi-seals completely cover the guide to valve seam so even pooled oil will not pull past the seal or get up under the seal. Educate me!
 
I would never use umbrella seals for two reasons. They never seal as well as a posi seal; and all the ones I have seen are made of 'junk' rubber, which eventually hardens & cracks with the heat. Guess what happens then.....
I would use a viton or silicon posi seal that is a tight fit on the guide & has a spring or clip that clamps the valve stem section of the seal.
 
Opinions vary. For YEARS engines never had seals on the exhaust. Look at the early Hemi for example. There is ZERO NEED for seals on the exhaust, because the exhaust valve stems point DOWN. Oil ain't defyin gravity. The truth of the matter is, if the guides and stems are in proper shape with the correct clearance, there damn near ain't a need for seals on either side. Why on earth would oil be pulled into the intake guides when there's a HUGE intake port? Honestly, about the only time one burns any appreciable amount of oil through the guides is when the guides are worn slam out. Even the older Chevy small blocks used ONLY a small o ring to seal the valves and they WORKED FINE. It's long been my opinion you can seal the valve stems too much and starve the guides.
 
Opinions vary. For YEARS engines never had seals on the exhaust. Look at the early Hemi for example. There is ZERO NEED for seals on the exhaust, because the exhaust valve stems point DOWN. Oil ain't defyin gravity. The truth of the matter is, if the guides and stems are in proper shape with the correct clearance, there damn near ain't a need for seals on either side. Why on earth would oil be pulled into the intake guides when there's a HUGE intake port? Honestly, about the only time one burns any appreciable amount of oil through the guides is when the guides are worn slam out. Even the older Chevy small blocks used ONLY a small o ring to seal the valves and they WORKED FINE. It's long been my opinion you can seal the valve stems too much and starve the guides.

Why on earth would oil be pulled into the intake guides when there's a HUGE intake port?

Rusty, you and I agree on a lot of things, but not this. The vacuum in a passage is effective in all of the passage, not just its largest cross sectional area. To prove that, get your wife's vacuum cleaner and a sharp pin and poke a tiny hole in the hose, tell her not to worry as such a small hole will not result in a vacuum leak,,, find out how that works for you. The vacuum or actually negative pressure in an intake port will suck the oil down and off an intake valve stem. And the 1/2 thou a side clearance in a valve stem is plenty of room for hot engine oil to run through. And it's not just an oil consumption issue, the oil that gets down the valve stem can cause coke to build up on the back of the valve, that hurts performance
Concerning exhaust valves, the pressure is blowing out so one may ask why put positive valve seals there. Because the pressure from the exhaust wave will also blow through that 1/2 thou a side clearance taking the lubricating oil out and leaving carbon and soot and acids from the combustion process in the valve guild passage.

Will the engine run without positive valve seals, sure it will, but it will not run as well over the potential life span of the engine. There are several reasons why today's engines last much longer than engines that were around when we first started driving. Better valve seals is one of them.

Back to Pista's question: Umbrellas seals work like the name suggests, they deflect the oil splashing around under the valve cover away from the valve stem like an umbrella. They deflect enough to be effective but are not as effective as positive valve seals.
Positive valve seals are generally sold by valve guide outside diameter and by valve stem diameter. There is a little bit of interference fit on the guide to make the positive valve seals stay in place.
I suggest measure to get the valve stem OD and the guild OD then shop Summit or some generic valve train supplier like Comp to find the positive stems that fit your application. In some cases the OD of the valve guide is turned down to come up with a readily available positive seal that fits your application.

When installing valves through positive valve seals, some valve seal kits include a thin vinyl sheath that fits over the valve lock grooves to protect the seal during the install process. If the kit you get does not include that, stretch a single wrap of vinyl electrical tape over the locks and lube with oil prior to install.
 
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Yes, the 72 valve guides were smaller OD and had 2 ribs cut for the rubber lined posi-locks the OEM used. The 83 head has smooth guides and used a friction fit, basically the same posi-lock without the rubber ribs. Thats why they were so hard to remove, just metal on metal. These have an ID of 13.9mm and the OD of the guide is 14mm(?) , sort of a tapered design, set it with a blow of a hammer.....good luck getting them off.
 
Why on earth would oil be pulled into the intake guides when there's a HUGE intake port?

Rusty, you and I agree on a lot of things, but not this. The vacuum in a passage is effective in all of the passage, not just its largest cross sectional area. To prove that, get your wife's vacuum cleaner and a sharp pin and poke a tiny hole in the hose, tell her not to worry as such a small hole will not result in a vacuum leak,,, find out how that works for you. The vacuum or actually negative pressure in an intake port will suck the oil down and off an intake valve stem. And the 1/2 thou a side clearance in a valve stem is plenty of room for hot engine oil to run through. And it's not just an oil consumption issue, the oil that gets down the valve stem can cause coke to build up on the back of the valve, that hurts performance
Concerning exhaust valves, the pressure is blowing out so one may ask why put positive valve seals there. Because the pressure from the exhaust wave will also blow through that 1/2 thou a side clearance taking the lubricating oil out and leaving carbon and soot and acids from the combustion process in the valve guild passage.

Will the engine run without positive valve seals, sure it will, but it will not run as well over the potential life span of the engine. There are several reasons why today's engines last much longer than engines that were around when we first started driving. Better valve seals is one of them.

Back to Pista's question: Umbrellas seals work like the name suggests, they deflect the oil splashing around under the valve cover away from the valve stem like an umbrella. They deflect enough to be effective but are not as effective as positive valve seals.
Positive valve seals are generally sold by valve guide outside diameter and by valve stem diameter. There is a little bit of interference fit on the guide to make the positive valve seals stay in place.
I suggest measure to get the valve stem OD and the guild OD then shop Summit or some generic valve train supplier like Comp to find the positive stems that fit your application. In some cases the OD of the valve guide is turned down to come up with a readily available positive seal that fits your application.

When installing valves through positive valve seals, some valve seal kits include a thin vinyl sheath that fits over the valve lock grooves to protect the seal during the install process. If the kit you get does not include that, stretch a single wrap of vinyl electrical tape over the locks and lube with oil prior to install.
Well, like I said, opinions vary and I for one am glad of that! Would be a boring world if we all thought the same.
 
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