Muncie M-20/21 or T10 users?

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pishta

pishta

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Saw a bellhousing to adapt these to a Mopar. Anyone ever use these behind a Mopar? Good, bad, or just... GM?
 
The Super T10 is about on par with the 833.....but the others are crap.
 
a super t-10 should not even be compared to an 833 and the muncies are junk. there is a reason in super stock and pro stock before there were clutchless tranny's every manufacturer used the 833. no ford top loaders, no muncies and no t-10 junk. now if you want compare how well they all shift for normal street driving then yes the t-10 is on par with the 833. thats it though they are junk otherwise. i run a stock 23 spline 833 behind a 416 that make 550 hp in a 3700 pound 70 challenger. i've broken a main shaft in 16 years. no gears breaking no cases cracking. never seen a muncie or t-10 last a season !
 
pishta said:
Saw a bellhousing to adapt these to a Mopar. Anyone ever use these behind a Mopar? Good, bad, or just... GM?
Click to expand...

I've had M21's and 1 - ST10 in some GM builds and they never failed me, at least up to a 12 flat car. I liked the close ratio M21 because of the 2.20 first gear, only about a 500 rpm drop between gears. With that said, the cost of a good one and the adapter would seem cost prohibitive to me. I'd just stick with the 833.

Just realized this is a older thread:violent1:
 
My uncle went through 3 muncies in his GTO before he switched to an automatic
 
The T10 and Super T10 are two different transmissions. If you think the Super T10 is junk, you've obviously never torn one down. This is a Mopar forum. All things Mopar are superior. But to say the Super T10 is junk is complete misinformation. If the Super T10 is such a bad design, I guess the guys at Richmond Gear are stupid for buying the design and offering the transmission basically unchanged brand new. The T10 was a cast iron case, heavy transmission with a weak design. It was in everything from Ramblers to Biscaynes. The Super T10, or "Power Brutes" as they were marketed, were everything they claimed to be. They began production of the all new aluminum case much stronger transmissionin 1974 and made them through about 1982. It's been said that they were overkill for everything they were ever put in. You might say "yeah nothing had any power in that time span". Not true considering Pontiac had the Super Duty Trans Am which had a 455 big block rated at 395 LB FT of torque. Remember, that was also net rating, since after about 1972, everything went from gross to net. My guess is gross it had 450 LB FT of torque, maybe more. So, to say the Super T10 was junk is complete junk itself. Next time you answer someone's question, do it with facts.
 
StrokerScamp said:
The T10 and Super T10 are two different transmissions. If you think the Super T10 is junk, you've obviously never torn one down. This is a Mopar forum. All things Mopar are superior. But to say the Super T10 is junk is complete misinformation. If the Super T10 is such a bad design, I guess the guys at Richmond Gear are stupid for buying the design and offering the transmission basically unchanged brand new. The T10 was a cast iron case, heavy transmission with a weak design. It was in everything from Ramblers to Biscaynes. The Super T10, or "Power Brutes" as they were marketed, were everything they claimed to be. They began production of the all new aluminum case much stronger transmissionin 1974 and made them through about 1982. It's been said that they were overkill for everything they were ever put in. You might say "yeah nothing had any power in that time span". Not true considering Pontiac had the Super Duty Trans Am which had a 455 big block rated at 395 LB FT of torque. Remember, that was also net rating, since after about 1972, everything went from gross to net. My guess is gross it had 450 LB FT of torque, maybe more. So, to say the Super T10 was junk is complete junk itself. Next time you answer someone's question, do it with facts.
Click to expand...
Couldn't have said it any better.
 
This is the way I would rate these 4spd transmissions from the day of the muscle cars,
18 spline hemi 833
nascar spec ford top loader
23 spline 833
large input top loader
m22 muncie, super t10(nod goes to m22 because of strait cut gears)
small input top loader
t10,m20,m21
saginaw 4spd(these would brake behind a 4cyl vega)
the two strongest 4spd made are being made today with stronger alloy steel and better machining.
jerico dr4 (started life as a top loader, far superior now)
g-force gf4r ( started life as a super t10 far superior now)
 
That's probably fairly accurate.
 
nash 5 speeds are great tranny's as well, but they break quite often. lots of gear jammers where i live, and like you said super t 10 is now basically the nash 5 speed. they break and they break often. the g force is basically a nash 5 speed turned on it's side and heavily modified internals to run a clutchless design and work really well. if money was no option it would be a jericho for me with a cintered iron clutch
 
No such thing as Nash. They were bought out by Richmond Gear. The Super T10 is a 4 speed. Not a 5 speed.

Richmond Super T10 4 speed: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/RMG-1304000072/

Richmond Super T10 Plus (NASCAR uses these): http://www.summitracing.com/parts/RMG-7021510/

Richmond 5 speed: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/RMG-7021710A/

Richmond 6 speed: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/RMG-7021626AA/

There are many more models on the Summit site. I don't think NASCAR would use an inferior product. Do they break? Sure. If you're stupid enough, you can break an anvil. I bet many more of them hold up after a 500 mile NASCAR race than break. 500 miles behind a 750 plus HP engine at racing speed in a racing environment doesn't sound like a weak transmission to me. You're welcome to your opinion, even if it's wrong.
 
Going back to the OP.......

I really don't see the point. For the dollar an 833 is the best option. Adapting a Muncie or standard T10 would be spending money to make a car worse than stock.
 
Back to the original question. Find yourself an 833. Save the grief of adapting the Muncie.
 
A833's are cheaper than Muncie's 7 days a week and twice on Sundays. Conversely, I own a 550 hp Ford with a Toploader and a 700 hp Chevy with a M20 and now an M22. I have to say that the M20 and M22 are more of a trans than I would have thought. I have broken the Muncies a few times, usually when you short shift it when the tires are up in smoke. The Toploader is a beast but really expensive. I also own Mopars with 23 and one with an 18 spline. I say that if your going to go with a higher HP car that your going to drive aggressively go with an aftermarket trans. Muncies aren't that weak, and are probably better than most people give them credit for. I truly believe, from personal experience, that the A833 is the best out there.
 
pishta said:
Saw a bellhousing to adapt these to a Mopar. Anyone ever use these behind a Mopar? Good, bad, or just... GM?
Click to expand...

If it is the mcleod bellhousing you are refering to, I think it is aimed at circle track racers. IMCA's, and alot of late model stock cars (not dirt late models) use this set-up. The gm trans is lighter than the mopar one plus alot of the small diameter racing clutches are more redily available with the GM spline. Also the Mcleod bellhousing is not SFI approved which is fine for cirle trackers, not fine for drag racers.

Also note that the prostock and superstock drag guys used to use the hemi A833 not the std A833
 
Could you post where you found that bellhousing or model number? I love the old saginaw and muncie transmissions i have a fully built st10 I might want to stick behind my duster instead of the 3spd.
 
I looked on MCleod's website and the belhousing isn't listed anymore. I have a new one in a box at home. I will look at it and post the part number tonight. Maybe you can locate one from the part number
 
Might want to check QuickTime.....whoops I mean Lakewood for the adapter. Muncies were aluminum cased were they not?? Had a friend "back in the day" with a 750 HP BB Vette that we pulled the trans out of more times than I care to remember. I have tortured both the 833 and a top loader, either one is a stout trans......
 
77-325 is the Lakewood part number. It was not a Mcleod brand, but a Lakewood, I guess i was thinking about clutches. Thanks 69crusty
 
I don't want to get in to an argument here but nascar teams use ether specially built Jerico wc4, or G-Force GF4A road race,or a Tex Racing T101( G-Force west ) This are face plated trans. with road race sliders (no synchros)and billet every thing in side and a nascar spec 1 1/4 29 spline input. That richmond t10 for $1800 probably wouldn't last 1 lap in one of those cars. Nascar trans cost in excess of $8000.00 dollars
 
They do NOW....but they used to use the Richmond trans. I should have clarified that. I AM OLD. LOL
 
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