My Jones Cam Recommendation

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Don't forget Ken at Oregon Cam Grinders. That guy KNOWS what's goin on.
 
Soooo...... after one calls around to some cam suppliers and/or fills out on line spec sheets, and gets a number different responses...... how do you determine which one is “best” for any given application?

Eeny meeny miny moe?
The one which is closest to what you thought you wanted?
The supplier who has the most clout?
The best price?
 
PRH said:
Soooo...... after one calls around to some cam suppliers and/or fills out on line spec sheets, and gets a number different responses...... how do you determine which one is “best” for any given application?

Eeny meeny miny moe?
The one which is closest to what you thought you wanted?
The supplier who has the most clout?
The best price?
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In my case, price is irrelevant. In all fairness, timely vendor response weights heavily. Just on e-mail response alone Jones, Isky to date are at the top. Bullet takes for ever. There are others I'm eyeballing. Yes calling is likely better in some cases. For me I'm not requesting a recommendation with no idea the ballpark I want or think I need to be in. I'm conservative on specs, so initially the cam Jones spec'd seems on the big side. To most I see it's not. I gotta see what others come up with, compare it to my chosen experts methodology (Vizard: How To Build Horsepower) for specing a cam yourself. I'm one that enjoys doing what I can myself, but am smart enough to know I don't know as much as I think I know! Its just gratifying to think and do this stuff as much as I can.
 
12many said:
In my case, price is irrelevant. In all fairness, timely vendor response weights heavily. Just on e-mail response alone Jones, Isky to date are at the top. Bullet takes for ever. There are others I'm eyeballing. Yes calling is likely better in some cases. For me I'm not requesting a recommendation with no idea the ballpark I want or think I need to be in. I'm conservative on specs, so initially the cam Jones spec'd seems on the big side. To most I see it's not. I gotta see what others come up with, compare it to my chosen experts methodology (Vizard: How To Build Horsepower) for specing a cam yourself. I'm one that enjoys doing what I can myself, but am smart enough to know I don't know as much as I think I know! Its just gratifying to think and do this stuff as much as I can.
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Interesting, I found Bullet had the fastest response time, but Jones came in second. This was a few months ago, so maybe different work loads now for them. Comp actually responded, but their recommendation was so far off what I wanted, that I quit responding. Now, Crower and Howards could not take the time to answer me, so I won't take the time to give them my money. When I called Oregon Cam Grinders, I did not reach Ken, but the guy who answered was polite and answered my questions. I may call again to talk to Ken, but for me they make sense to me because they are somewhat local.
 
I'm sure its just the time of the year, and response to e-mail forms can take awhile. Isky emailed a recommendation that I requested on the the same Sunday, hours later late in the evening a while ago. Surprised me. This day and age you gotta fast!
 
Maybe the guys that responded fastest can do so because they are not busy.
Myself ...I prefer talking to people over emailing. Conversations are so much more efficient ! Texting is better than email .
 
yellow rose said:
I *THINK* that his 316 number is measured in a different manner.

Been awhile since I've talked with Mike but I remember him not being too excited about the advertised numbers for some reason.

Should have written that down when we were talking about it.

12many could go to speedtalk.com and join there and ask mike on the forum. Then you'd have a public answer about his numbers and why he called out what he did.
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Mike has his own propriatory software that spots out cam specs based on input from the user. And his cams are ground without the traditional "master lobe" so he can grind to any spec needed... No limits.

I can tell you he ground a cam for my kids dirt B mod and the performance of his car opened some eyes... The PO could not believe how strong the car pulled down the straight.
 
yellow rose said:
I *THINK* that his 316 number is measured in a different manner.

Been awhile since I've talked with Mike but I remember him not being too excited about the advertised numbers for some reason.

Should have written that down when we were talking about it.

12many could go to speedtalk.com and join there and ask mike on the forum. Then you'd have a public answer about his numbers and why he called out what he did.
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Found the explanation there, so that takes care of that. Still a pain trying to compare different manufacturers specs. Getting there though! From a post at Speed-Talk by Mike Jones:
“This is Why since 1979, we have never used a .020" duration number to classify our cams. We use the actual seat duration(Hot Lash divided by rocker ratio). Tight lash or loose lash, it doesn't matter. When we say we're giving you a 296 seat duration cam, the valve will be open for 296 degrees. Our 296 degree tight lash, will keep the valve open the same amount of time as our 296 degree loose lash. This makes it easy to compare all of our profiles. With all the different lash's and different acceleration rates, the .020" number is useless”
 
I understand the logic in Mikes philosophy........ it just doesn’t make for easy comparisons between his grinds and others(not that he cares about that).
 
That’s true. If he provided more numbers it would be easier. It would take a purchase of a cam to know. That’s a lot of work to do to discover what the timing events are, at what ever level of multiple points of lift your checking.
 
PRH said:
I understand the logic in Mikes philosophy........ it just doesn’t make for easy comparisons between his grinds and others(not that he cares about that).
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I’ve looked at some old Ultradyne lists and the durations on the solids show duration @.020” and on another list it shows “seat duration .020” so I guess it’s a lost cause trying to directly compare. I know most don’t give overlap specs anymore either and have read contradictory statements about various specs being useless etc. but I want to do side by sides, run the calculation etc. I’ve read Vizard states in general actual duration on solids is 12-15 more than shown @.020” but still......
 
If Mike wanted to, he could show his “seat-to-seat” timing....... along with the .020 duration.

The more street oriented stuff from comp is shown at .015 instead of .020.
 
Yep. The cam guys know all this and yet and still they don't do anything to correct it because God forbid, someone might try and copy what they are doing.

No wait!! It's already going on.

The big deal, for me in calling a cam grinder I trust I because if I get along better with guy A over guy B or C and we are on the same page, you get a cam that is actually what you need/want.

There is nothing wrong with Comp lobes. Hell, I know Comp has lobes that no one else has. And I'd bet Brookshire had lobes no one else did. And so on.

The difference is what intake lobe are they going to use with what exhaust lobe? And when they pick the lobes, where are the going to set the timing?

One cam guy may have his lobes and his timing and another his own ideas. And they may not even look like the same numbers and likely they are not.

But the results from the best of one cam grinder to the others may be 10-15 HP difference between 4-5 different grinders.

Does that 10-15 HP translate into HP on the dyno? And if so, does it translate to lower ET's in the car? It depends. On the chassis and the chassis tuner and the engine tuner. Some guys can find 50 HP and the car never goes quicker because the chassis is a freaking paper clip and it eats up every single HP over the maximum it can handle.

In a street/strip deal, there may be even less power difference than 10-15 HP, but the nebulous monster known as "driveability" will raise its ugly head and eat you up.

Two cams that make close to the same HP on the dyno may be two totally different animals to drive on the street!

Unless you are very proficient in selecting lobes, and calling out the timing, you're always better off to call someone and get their advice.
 
Very true! Very true.
I think that the mention of cams for the track and for the street and the drivability was good. Sometimes you can have your cake and eat it too!
For the most part, it really won’t happen. Because your making a compromise somewhere and your willing to live with it.
 
Are all these cams hardened the same? Likely not a big issue with the roller I have planned but I'm curious.
 
on solid cams .020 or.050 are deceptive and can get you in trouble as lash and intensity make a big difference
Experience, Cam Doc , SAE method for seat timing .200 .300 for power
remember many advertised are marketing driven
does the designer work trying to create the perfect mathematical lobe to a zillion decimal places for his new cnc grinder or does he model valve motion and head flow ?
 
Unsure how .050 or .020 are deceptive. They are a tool for mapping and comparing the lobe ramps.

I.e. 2 cams have the same duration at .050 yet different durations at .020.
 
roccodart440 said:
Unsure how .050 or .020 are deceptive. They are a tool for mapping and comparing the lobe ramps.

I.e. 2 cams have the same duration at .050 yet different durations at .020.
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I agree. However, it’s also everything before, in between & there after as well. For most guys, I’d have to guess about 99.999%, they’ll never look or care about it. Wyrmrider is splitting hairs on it and IMO, while he has a technical point of correctness to argue from, for the other 99% of the people, it’s just more bullshit in the cesspool to physically wade your fingers through in search of something you’ll never know you had or not.

You will have a much better and easier time figuring out which of the otherwise 3 identical cars I give you to test drive has a 112-110 or 108 centerline cam in it, during a 20 - 90 mph test.

You’ll have a super easy time figuring out test two of which carb I have on top of otherwise identical engines.

Is there a better power curve in different centerlines? Sure!
Is there power between a 750 & a 950? Sure!
If you keep at it in all the little things, it will add up. No doubt.
For your specific mill, you have to decide if it is worth the effort of pulling your hair out on it.

On your daily or mild hot rod, perhaps your S/S build that rarley see’s the track, will you care? Maybe so in your head, but you won’t really know the difference.

When you take science to the engine and build the most power you can into it by slicing and dicing every last bit of data and optimize it to the max making sure your getting the most bang for your buck, fear not, there is some shlep throwing a left over engine parts engine together that’s going to hand you a pasting at the track.

Seen it to many times. BTDT

IF! You are racing heads up, do so at every turn take advantage of every tech feature. Otherwise, don’t give yourself heartburn over it. There is always a bigger dog.
 
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@rumblefish360 Couldn't agree more and this is my philosophy with street cars as well.

I had a few choices with my current cam. One was bigger at .020. Both the same at .050, both rollers. I actually picked the one that had a little less at .050 deliberately. Knowing full well it would leave something on the table. I also went with a 112 instead of a 110LSA, certainly leaving something on the table. But gained in other aspects...

There is so much to camshaft choices and IMO for most people, calling a getting a cam cut by an expert for you is the way to go unless you understand it enough to pick one on your own that will serve your purpose.

When I see guys talk about advertised duration and advertised powerbands I literally cringe..but have to remind myself that I was that guy once and I am no expert on cams compared to other people on here. You can always learn more and gain experience.
 
@roccodart440 In the days before the internet... LMAO...

My club had a sweet deal with the local Dodge dealer. Huge discounts for club members. I would purchase (sb) cams just to swap out and test. Then open up a Comp catalog to start comparing numbers, select a few to order up, install, test.

It was as far as I’m concerned, the ONLY reliable source of information I could gather since every manufacturer would spin there product as best. Someone is wrong.
And it wasn’t “I” testing a slew of cams to find out what’s what with them.

Im no expert but I’ll call my own specs from time to time just for my garbage alone.
 
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