Thumbs up for Mr. Peter Bergman! A good fella and a die hard car guy. Also 1
Insanely crazy cool car shop. A pleasure to have met him.
Insanely crazy cool car shop. A pleasure to have met him.
My "new" '74 Duster- or why I need a project like a hole in the head
- Thread starter 72bluNblu
- Start date
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Heeeeeyyyyyy bout time you do something to your Duster!! 
Now....... T56?
Now....... T56?
Heeeeeyyyyyy bout time you do something to your Duster!!
Now....... T56?
That's next I swear!
Seriously though I was planning on doing all of this work at the same time as the T56 swap, dropping the K with the engine and trans and doing all of this too. Which is why these parts have been sitting around so long, even longer than my T56! Anyway, that would have put the car out of action a lot longer, so now that this is done the t56 swap is just a transmission swap. Well, with some extra fabrication. But I'm gonna leave everything else in place. I may regret that, but that's the plan anyway.
So, no one saw what's "wrong" with my last picture yet?
Your k frame is bolted together?
or that the dougs headers are still installed? I can't seem to find anything "wrong" with the pic other than that stuff isn't all on my car!! Lol
Trojmn
Well-Known Member
missing LBJ cotter pin & ginormous UCA bump stop.
edit; read that bump stop was designed in
edit; read that bump stop was designed in
Cotter pin is there. The Doug's are still installed!
Well, not still, again.
Yeah. So, I bought the TTI shorty's because the Doug's were really close to the torsion bars in a couple spots. Like close enough that they were rubbed some of the ceramic coating off. I also assumed that I would be able to pick up some more ground clearance, and lose my oil filter relocation for just a shorty filter (like a #2004). The relocation looks cool and is easier for filter changes, but I was using some 90* AN fittings and the o-rings in those were dripping on my header anyway. Figured if I'm going to oil the pipe I might as well just do it on oil changes and not constant dripping. So, I went through the process. I did find that by pulling the Z-bar, mini-starter, and dropping the steering center link (and cycling the steering side to side depending on which side I was working on) and removing the torsion bars I did not need to raise the engine. You heard that right, the Doug's came out (and went back in!) without moving the engine off the mounts. On the passenger side I also had to drop the oil filter relocation pickup, just like you'd have to drop the oil filter as in the instructions. And I pulled the exhaust studs on the passenger side too, easier to drain the radiator than jack up the engine.
So, with the Doug's out the TTI headers went in super easy, since all that stuff was out of the way. The driver's side would have gone in with some of that stuff still installed, the passenger side needed everything out still but the studs (including the torsion bar and steering link!). But right off I didn't like the TTI's. The coating looks like aluminum spray paint. And although they're both 1 5/8" tubes, the TTI's just looked smaller. And not just shorter obviously, but even the tubes look smaller. Maybe it's an optical illusion, whatever. Yes, my Doug's are a little worse for wear, you can see the "red" looking spot where they were hitting the torsion bar. But they're 1.12" torsion bars, so yeah.
So anyway, the TTI's were easy to install with all that stuff out. I did the passenger side first because I already saw that the exhaust would be easier on that side, and I have my 02 sensor on my driver's pipe so I was avoiding it. But after I attached the head pipe, problems started. Like right off the bat I had to cut the corner off of my inspection cover for my bellhousing. The Doug's needed the corner of the bellhousing trimmed, but the TTI's were worse. This is after I took a grinder to the inspection cover. Hard to see, but there's less than an 1/8" there. The Doug's cleared the corner of the inspection cover fine the way it was.
The other thing I found was that the shorty oil filter didn't fit. It says right on the TTI website you don't need the 90* adaptor with a short filter. Well, my canton oil plate is taller than a stock plate, and yeah, the shorty filter didn't fit. And I didn't want the stock 90* adaptor, nor do I have one ready to install. So, on with the relocation again. And yeah, still gonna be tight on that torsion bar.
The final nail in the coffin was when I measured the headpipe to the frame. Less than 3/8" of an improvement in ground clearance. Yeah, that's right. The Doug's are less than 3/8" lower. As I started looking at the driver's side, and what a pain it was going to be to adapt my exhaust to the head pipe, and how close the head pipe was to the z-bar, the stock prop valve for the brakes, and yeah, the torsion bar again, I realized that I was just trading spots where the clearance was tight.
So I took the TTI's off and reinstalled the Doug's. Fortunately I only made one cut on my passenger exhaust pipe, so I just welded it back up. Before I put the Doug's back on I added/deepened a couple of the dimples for the torsion bars. The result was plenty of clearance after the reinstall was done.
Now, I'm not totally bashing the TTI's. I think if I were building the whole exhaust at once I might not have worried about it. So, I'm going to use them on my '71 Dart GT. It's also a floor shift auto with smaller torsion bars, so I should eliminate a couple of the tight spots I had on the Duster.
Bottom line is, I like the Doug's better, so they're back on. Oh, and that oil filter? The shorty filter fits fine with the Doug's. I knew it would fit, but I didn't like that when you change the oil you end up spilling some on the headers. Well, given the o-ring leaks I had on the AN 90* swivel ends that's moot anyway.
Well, not still, again.
Yeah. So, I bought the TTI shorty's because the Doug's were really close to the torsion bars in a couple spots. Like close enough that they were rubbed some of the ceramic coating off. I also assumed that I would be able to pick up some more ground clearance, and lose my oil filter relocation for just a shorty filter (like a #2004). The relocation looks cool and is easier for filter changes, but I was using some 90* AN fittings and the o-rings in those were dripping on my header anyway. Figured if I'm going to oil the pipe I might as well just do it on oil changes and not constant dripping. So, I went through the process. I did find that by pulling the Z-bar, mini-starter, and dropping the steering center link (and cycling the steering side to side depending on which side I was working on) and removing the torsion bars I did not need to raise the engine. You heard that right, the Doug's came out (and went back in!) without moving the engine off the mounts. On the passenger side I also had to drop the oil filter relocation pickup, just like you'd have to drop the oil filter as in the instructions. And I pulled the exhaust studs on the passenger side too, easier to drain the radiator than jack up the engine.
So, with the Doug's out the TTI headers went in super easy, since all that stuff was out of the way. The driver's side would have gone in with some of that stuff still installed, the passenger side needed everything out still but the studs (including the torsion bar and steering link!). But right off I didn't like the TTI's. The coating looks like aluminum spray paint. And although they're both 1 5/8" tubes, the TTI's just looked smaller. And not just shorter obviously, but even the tubes look smaller. Maybe it's an optical illusion, whatever. Yes, my Doug's are a little worse for wear, you can see the "red" looking spot where they were hitting the torsion bar. But they're 1.12" torsion bars, so yeah.
So anyway, the TTI's were easy to install with all that stuff out. I did the passenger side first because I already saw that the exhaust would be easier on that side, and I have my 02 sensor on my driver's pipe so I was avoiding it. But after I attached the head pipe, problems started. Like right off the bat I had to cut the corner off of my inspection cover for my bellhousing. The Doug's needed the corner of the bellhousing trimmed, but the TTI's were worse. This is after I took a grinder to the inspection cover. Hard to see, but there's less than an 1/8" there. The Doug's cleared the corner of the inspection cover fine the way it was.
The other thing I found was that the shorty oil filter didn't fit. It says right on the TTI website you don't need the 90* adaptor with a short filter. Well, my canton oil plate is taller than a stock plate, and yeah, the shorty filter didn't fit. And I didn't want the stock 90* adaptor, nor do I have one ready to install. So, on with the relocation again. And yeah, still gonna be tight on that torsion bar.
The final nail in the coffin was when I measured the headpipe to the frame. Less than 3/8" of an improvement in ground clearance. Yeah, that's right. The Doug's are less than 3/8" lower. As I started looking at the driver's side, and what a pain it was going to be to adapt my exhaust to the head pipe, and how close the head pipe was to the z-bar, the stock prop valve for the brakes, and yeah, the torsion bar again, I realized that I was just trading spots where the clearance was tight.
So I took the TTI's off and reinstalled the Doug's. Fortunately I only made one cut on my passenger exhaust pipe, so I just welded it back up. Before I put the Doug's back on I added/deepened a couple of the dimples for the torsion bars. The result was plenty of clearance after the reinstall was done.
Now, I'm not totally bashing the TTI's. I think if I were building the whole exhaust at once I might not have worried about it. So, I'm going to use them on my '71 Dart GT. It's also a floor shift auto with smaller torsion bars, so I should eliminate a couple of the tight spots I had on the Duster.
Bottom line is, I like the Doug's better, so they're back on. Oh, and that oil filter? The shorty filter fits fine with the Doug's. I knew it would fit, but I didn't like that when you change the oil you end up spilling some on the headers. Well, given the o-ring leaks I had on the AN 90* swivel ends that's moot anyway.
So after all that I put it back on ground, reset the ride height and did another alignment. It sits a bit lower, not much. The rear springs have settled a little more, like an 1/8" or so. The front I lowered just under a 1/4" compared to where I was. Yeah, doesn't sound like much but it makes it obvious from all angles that the tops of the tires are covered by the fenders, so while it may not sound like much visually it makes a difference. Rear wheel openings are now 25 7/8" from the ground through the axle, front openings are 24 5/8". Oh, and I rolled the front fender lips for more clearance. I was pretty much all out before, so I needed to roll to go lower.
I set the alignment up at -1* camber, +6.25* caster, and 3/32" toe in. That's with the SPC caster/camber bubble gauge and a set of toe plates anyway. I'm going to put a few miles on it, make sure I don't have any issues and then take it to have it checked on a rack to confirm my home alignment. A quick trip around town and the steering feels a bit lighter compared to when I had the +7* of caster, have to see how it is on the freeway. The easier turning effort at slow speed is noticeable though, and with the 16:1 manual steering that may work out good. Just set it to +8* and then back it down till your arms don't hurt right?
I set the alignment up at -1* camber, +6.25* caster, and 3/32" toe in. That's with the SPC caster/camber bubble gauge and a set of toe plates anyway. I'm going to put a few miles on it, make sure I don't have any issues and then take it to have it checked on a rack to confirm my home alignment. A quick trip around town and the steering feels a bit lighter compared to when I had the +7* of caster, have to see how it is on the freeway. The easier turning effort at slow speed is noticeable though, and with the 16:1 manual steering that may work out good. Just set it to +8* and then back it down till your arms don't hurt right?
That's all good info to know! If I stay with a small block I'm gonna run an upgraded TB suspension and I was considering TTI shorties for ground clearance but I think I'll just get dougs!
Now if I decide to to go G3 I'll probably run an HDK for the added clearance around the engine and then it'll be TTI's or SRT manifolds.
Car looks awesome btw! That 1/4" makes a difference!
Now if I decide to to go G3 I'll probably run an HDK for the added clearance around the engine and then it'll be TTI's or SRT manifolds.
Car looks awesome btw! That 1/4" makes a difference!
oi81b4uu812b4
Well-Known Member
Nice grease zerk locatation.
DionR
Well-Known Member
Looks great!
Glad to see a comparison between the two headers, been debating about some Dougs and this gives me some additional info to chew on.
Glad to see a comparison between the two headers, been debating about some Dougs and this gives me some additional info to chew on.
Which one? The LCA pin? Worked awesome for the poly LCA bushings.
Thanks!
Yeah I was kind of disappointed with the TTI shorties. I mean, I'm sure they work great, and compared to the Doug's I think that they do have fewer tight spots for clearance. But the places they are tight are just as bad. I think because of their design that you would get away with not denting the headers, but I know I would have needed to add at least a couple of dimples to the head pipes on my car. And not just because I have 1.12" torsion bars either, the driver's side was super close to the z-bar and even the prop valve for the brakes.
I'm not saying the TTI shorties aren't good headers. I think I just kind of expected big changes, and I really didn't see them. The ground clearance change is very minor. The clearance changes are decent, and the install would have been easier if I just had to do the work to swap from manifolds to the TTI shorties. But of course I already had the Dougs in there, so, I had to do just as much because I had to remove the Dougs first. Still though, you have to drop the starter, oil filter, and z-bar (for a 4 speed) no matter what. All I did in addition to that was the torsion bars, center link, and the exhaust studs on the passenger side. The center link is a piece of cake, hardly worth mentioning. The torsion bars aren't easy, but I was already doing that and compared to lifting the engine I think it was way easier. The exhaust studs of course meant draining the radiator. Having done the TTI install though, there would be some acrobatics involved with the torsion bars in place. Especially ones larger than 1". I didn't try it, but not having them in there was why it was so easy. The other thing is that the biggest place that's tight on clearance is at the oil filter. Which means changing the oil filter is just as big of a pain in the *** with the shorties as it is with the long tubes. I mean, once I got over putting a couple dimples for the torsion bars into the Doug's that part is over. Never have to worry about that again. But the damn oil filter? And even with the stock plate without a 90* adaptor you couldn't have used all the shorty filters. I mean, like there's ONE that would be short enough to fit, a #2004 (4.1" tall). I had a mopar #P4452890, which is a short filter, and it wouldn't have fit even without the Canton plate. Not on my car. Which would mean you'd still have to run a 90* adaptor, or a stock filter plate and the shortest filter you can buy.
I think most of it for me was expectation. I expected a couple of big differences (ground clearance, oil filter clearance) and neither of those really materialized. I just like the Dougs better, they're a great header. I'll run the TTI shorties on my Dart, it's got a 318, less power, its an auto so no z-bar or inspection plate issue, and I haven't already made the exhaust for that car so I won't be doing a ton of work to convert from long tubes to shorties, just building the system for the shorties to begin with.
oi81b4uu812b4
Well-Known Member
rapom65
Well-Known Member
Hey blu, haven't been posting much lately but have been watching, and yes, still working on my pig. I'm finalizing a tire and rim pkg and need a measurement, or two, if you wouldn't mind the inconvenience. I'm blatantly trying to copy your stance and need your outside side wall to side wall width front and rear. Thanks man and keep up the great work.
So, the actual section width of the tire, as mounted, right? Not the generic spec from the tire website because my rims are narrower than the measuring rims used for the section width spec.
I should be able to get that for you tomorrow.
rapom65
Well-Known Member
Sorry I worded that badly. Really what I want is the width of your rear axle, outside side wall to outside side wall, and the same up front. I want my tires to sit in the wheel wells identical to your car. I want to make sure before ordering the custom offset rim$ for my narrowed axle that I've got the back spacing right. Simplist way I can think of insuring that is to match the track width you have. The front isn't a big deal as that is pretty much a known for a 275/35-18 but my rear set up is way out of the norm.
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Oh! Ok, I can get that. My toe plates should work pretty well for getting that measurement. I'll just use them on the rear. I have a decent idea of what it should be but I'll get the actual measurement.
Deucemopar
Well-Known Member
Cool car!!
Ok, measuring from the outside edges of the sidewalls (widest part) using a set of toe plates I get
Rear- 69"
Front- 70"
So, not the true track width because it's outside to outside. And I really did get even numbers, not sure how that worked. But it is pretty much what you have to deal with for clearing the tires. The front of course has a full -1* of camber, so, that helps.
The rear axle on my car is a 68-70 B body rear, and it does measure 60-1/8" from wheel mounting surface to wheel mounting surface. The rest is 18x10's with a 7" backspace and 295/35/18's.
Also, I measured the tire overhang on the rims, the distance from the outer edge of the sidewall to the outer lip of the rim. I got a little less than I expected, only .25" in the back and .275" in the front.
It makes sense, the section width specs are 10.9" and 11.9" for my tires and the outside rim measurements are 10" and 11". But the measuring rim for the specs are wider than my 18x9's and 18x10's, so I'm getting a little squeeze on the section width. It's only about .4" (little less in the front) but that's something.
rapom65
Well-Known Member
Awsome, thanks blu. I know you went the extra mile to get those numbers for me and I really appreciate it.
No problem! Only took a few minutes, no big deal.
I was a little surprised to find out the rear was narrower than the front, but I guess I shouldn't have been. That outer wheel house in the back is less than ideal with the "bump" and being offset from the outer edge. Good news for when I reshape the outer wheel tub.
rapom65
Well-Known Member
[QUOTE Good news for when I reshape the outer wheel tub.[/QUOTE]
???? Thought you were happy with the 295s in the stock wheel wells. Are we planning something a little more radical?
???? Thought you were happy with the 295s in the stock wheel wells. Are we planning something a little more radical?
I don't think I'm going to go bigger than 295. But I do still have about 1" of rake on the car, I'd like to lower the rear a bit more and I'm all out of room to that bump in the outer wheelhouse. So I'm going to do kind of a reverse mini-tub, make that outer wall of the tub vertical and smooth out that bump, tie it into the quarter lip so the lip is only a 1/4" wide or so. Should give me plenty of room to lower it, and I should be able to add rear disks too without worrying about the added 5/16" causing issues with tires rubbing.
That's the plan anyway.
Okay, another update. Just a small cosmetic one anyway. So my car is a '74, and I hate the plastic, stuck-on looking sidemarkers. I already changed the front side markers to '68 pieces when I did the front end swap and bodywork on the front clip. So, now to change the rears.
So here's what you start with, at least on a '74 Duster. I spent a bunch of time trying to figure out where the '68 marker would look best, the result was not using any of the existing holes. But hey, if you're going to do it, might as well put them where they look right. So the drill mark is the center of the new light location.
And here's the fun part!
The new marker hold did eliminate one of the old mounting holes, and here we are prepped for some welding.
Clamps in place, trying to make the bodywork on this as painless as possible. Even if I'm not going to do any for now.
Welding almost done...
Ground smooth and ready to go
Marker light installed, tan-ish paint to keep it from rusting. There's way more bodywork to do than this anyway, eventually I'll get around to finishing the paint job I started on the front.
And now they match!
So here's what you start with, at least on a '74 Duster. I spent a bunch of time trying to figure out where the '68 marker would look best, the result was not using any of the existing holes. But hey, if you're going to do it, might as well put them where they look right. So the drill mark is the center of the new light location.
And here's the fun part!
The new marker hold did eliminate one of the old mounting holes, and here we are prepped for some welding.
Clamps in place, trying to make the bodywork on this as painless as possible. Even if I'm not going to do any for now.
Welding almost done...
Ground smooth and ready to go
Marker light installed, tan-ish paint to keep it from rusting. There's way more bodywork to do than this anyway, eventually I'll get around to finishing the paint job I started on the front.
And now they match!
DionR
Well-Known Member
Man that looks good, absolutely nailed the look I want.
Funny thing about the marker lights is, about 6 months ago I put on a set of the "stick on" factory ones, but it was because I had the opportunity to get paint on the car but wasn't looking to customize it and didn't have time for any real body work. Just wanted better than what was on there before I disassembled it.
My preference is the '70-71 flush ones, which I might go for someday. Car needs a bunch of body work so this paint isn't going be the end of the project.
Might look at using the marker lights from a new Challenger, too. They are flush, and smaller than the '70 style, but no idea how easy the would be to retrofit.
Either way, I like the '68 style ones you used, much more classy than the '74 style. And even better that they match now.
Funny thing about the marker lights is, about 6 months ago I put on a set of the "stick on" factory ones, but it was because I had the opportunity to get paint on the car but wasn't looking to customize it and didn't have time for any real body work. Just wanted better than what was on there before I disassembled it.
My preference is the '70-71 flush ones, which I might go for someday. Car needs a bunch of body work so this paint isn't going be the end of the project.
Might look at using the marker lights from a new Challenger, too. They are flush, and smaller than the '70 style, but no idea how easy the would be to retrofit.
Either way, I like the '68 style ones you used, much more classy than the '74 style. And even better that they match now.
Yeah I was all over the place on picking which sidemarkers to use. The fenders on my Duster are from a '71 Dart, so, I could have stuck with the '71 fronts and just done the rears to match. Which I considered. Of course on a Demon the side markers didn't match from the factory, they used Duster markers in the back and Dart markers in the front, so mismatched from the get go. I actually considered putting a set of '71 Dart rear markers on it, so the rears would match the front. Different, kind of like a "the way the factory should have done it" kind of thing. But the Duster quarter doesn't have a nice flat spot like the Dart, and the shape of the quarter doesn't match the '71 Dart quarter. It would have worked, but it was tough to find a spot where the '71 Dart marker looked good in the Duster quarter.
But in the end I liked the simplicity of the '68 markers. Not flush but close to it, small, kind of a classic look. Definitely easier to install in the rear than either of the '71 options, you'd need a patch panel for those. But I had to make a patch panel for the front, although it's just a flat piece of metal. The rears would need a patch cut from a factory quarter to have the flanging to make the light flush like original.
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