New to the forum and to A-bodies - advice on a build direction

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Elemental_Garage

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Hey all!

A few days ago we took a 1971 Dodge Demon in on trade for some equipment we no longer needed at our shop. I'm new to Dodge and to A-bodies in general. I'm trying to figure out what I want to do with this to make it a fun build. We mostly do pro-touring type of work, but open to anything really. Obviously as a shop our aim is to make money on our projects (at least enough to keep doing what we love), so I'm trying to balance that vs. what I personally would love to do if I was keeping this, which would be to make a pro-touring/rally Demon.

I have 3d scanning, printing, and a CNC at my fingertips, so I'm excited to develop some parts for this no matter what direction I decide to take this car. But totally open to ideas and thoughts about what you all would love to see in a build.

Here is what I'm starting with:

1698173511799.png


1698173540950.png


Thanks for any/all advice, and looking forward to learning from you all! Cheers!

Dylan
 
FOD Mitigation said:
First question would be how do you feel about that green?
Click to expand...
Not my first choice, but the paint job is okay. Not the greatest, but mostly fixable with some wet-sanding and correction. So unless it's a no-go color for everyone I'd be inclined to keep it. How do YOU feel about it? :)
 
Seems like there are 2 different routes a "fun" build can take; straight line or curves. I don't think they have to be mutually exclusive, but they do have some foundational differences. This isn't to say a stock type rebuild and cruising isn't a "fun" build, only that it seems to me that when someone uses that adjective it usually means it accelerates/handles better than stock.

I think you can build a "straight line" car to handle well enough but it will be limited. At the same time, a "curves" car will handle better but is not going to work as well at a drag strip. In both cases, the compromises don't make it a bad car, it just depends on what you want out of it and are willing to accept or ignore.

Now that I've preached to the choir, here's some ideas. Note that these ignore any kind of budget. Just ideas.

Not knowing what you have under hood other than a V8, I think a stroker from BluePrint and an overdrive auto of some type (A500 or A518 or maybe a 200R4 or 4L60/65) would be a great combination. It would work for the drag strip but be fine for driving back and forth there. Put some 205/60R15 tires on the front (relatively narrow but not pizza cutters) and a 275/60R15 in the back with some Cal-Tracs peaking out from under it. Even better if the wheels are steel with poverty caps. I would add 11.75" brakes to the front just because of the way people drive now, but drums for the rear should be fine.

The other direction would be the full pro-touring setup. 2 options there, the full torsion bar setup or an aftermarket coil over conversion. So far, doesn't seem to be a huge difference in the performance between the 2 so it more comes down to what you want. Just don't assume that just because the suspension design is 60+ years old it has to be replaced, upgrading the parts without changing the basic design can yield great results without spending a fortune. One note, if you jumped into the deep end and wanted a Gen3 and 8HP70, rumor has it that @HemiDenny (HDK) is making progress on a nice swap option with his coil over kit.

Based on the fact that it looks to already have a spool mount k-frame in it, I would go looking for a 5.7 or 6.4 and use the Holley swap parts with a TKX or T56 myself. Get ahold of @BergmanAutoCraft and upgrade the torsion bar suspension. Put some 13" or 14" brakes on it and 18" wheels with 275/35R18 on the front and whatever size you can squeeze in the rear.

The wild card option would be the full pro-touring suspension and brakes, but with a big block instead. More old school, and unique for sure. With all the aluminum you can throw at it, not much if any heavier than an all iron smallblock.

Dang, that turned into a small book. Sorry about that.
 
DionR said:
Seems like there are 2 different routes a "fun" build can take; straight line or curves. I don't think they have to be mutually exclusive, but they do have some foundational differences. This isn't to say a stock type rebuild and cruising isn't a "fun" build, only that it seems to me that when someone uses that adjective it usually means it accelerates/handles better than stock.

I think you can build a "straight line" car to handle well enough but it will be limited. At the same time, a "curves" car will handle better but is not going to work as well at a drag strip. In both cases, the compromises don't make it a bad car, it just depends on what you want out of it and are willing to accept or ignore.

Now that I've preached to the choir, here's some ideas. Note that these ignore any kind of budget. Just ideas.

Not knowing what you have under hood other than a V8, I think a stroker from BluePrint and an overdrive auto of some type (A500 or A518 or maybe a 200R4 or 4L60/65) would be a great combination. It would work for the drag strip but be fine for driving back and forth there. Put some 205/60R15 tires on the front (relatively narrow but not pizza cutters) and a 275/60R15 in the back with some Cal-Tracs peaking out from under it. Even better if the wheels are steel with poverty caps. I would add 11.75" brakes to the front just because of the way people drive now, but drums for the rear should be fine.

The other direction would be the full pro-touring setup. 2 options there, the full torsion bar setup or an aftermarket coil over conversion. So far, doesn't seem to be a huge difference in the performance between the 2 so it more comes down to what you want. Just don't assume that just because the suspension design is 60+ years old it has to be replaced, upgrading the parts without changing the basic design can yield great results without spending a fortune. One note, if you jumped into the deep end and wanted a Gen3 and 8HP70, rumor has it that @HemiDenny (HDK) is making progress on a nice swap option with his coil over kit.

Based on the fact that it looks to already have a spool mount k-frame in it, I would go looking for a 5.7 or 6.4 and use the Holley swap parts with a TKX or T56 myself. Get ahold of @BergmanAutoCraft and upgrade the torsion bar suspension. Put some 13" or 14" brakes on it and 18" wheels with 275/35R18 on the front and whatever size you can squeeze in the rear.

The wild card option would be the full pro-touring suspension and brakes, but with a big block instead. More old school, and unique for sure. With all the aluminum you can throw at it, not much if any heavier than an all iron smallblock.

Dang, that turned into a small book. Sorry about that.
Click to expand...
No worries mate I really appreciate the thoughts!

I was actually browsing some used Gen 3 motors as you posted this haha, so you can see where my mind is going already, but I guess I'll see how builds in front of it go. But I do like the idea of a Hemi and T56 or 8-speed. Can you elaborate on what the spool-mount K frame is? Was it a specific crossmember that was different for a V8 vs. 6 or something?

I think the wheels on there now are Jeep wheels of some kind, which is actually what got me thinking about a rally build. But I can't justify taking a customer base down to like 5% of the searching population.

Are there any gaps in terms of custom parts for these? Any time I pick up a new platform I try and find a few items to design and add to the roster. For the 67-72 C10, for example, there was a big lack of custom gauge bezels (at least ones that looked good and weren't just sheet metal) so that is something I tackled.

Any vendors to steer clear of on this platform?
 
My first question is, how deep are your pockets? This is hobby ain't cheap, no matter the direction, but the pro touring crap (my opinion, because it's tacky as hell and been WAY overdone) can get VERY expensive. So keep that in mind.
 
Elemental_Garage said:
Hey all!

A few days ago we took a 1971 Dodge Demon in on trade for some equipment we no longer needed at our shop. I'm new to Dodge and to A-bodies in general. I'm trying to figure out what I want to do with this to make it a fun build. We mostly do pro-touring type of work, but open to anything really. Obviously as a shop our aim is to make money on our projects (at least enough to keep doing what we love), so I'm trying to balance that vs. what I personally would love to do if I was keeping this, which would be to make a pro-touring/rally Demon.

I have 3d scanning, printing, and a CNC at my fingertips, so I'm excited to develop some parts for this no matter what direction I decide to take this car. But totally open to ideas and thoughts about what you all would love to see in a build.

Here is what I'm starting with:

View attachment 1716157797

View attachment 1716157798

Thanks for any/all advice, and looking forward to learning from you all! Cheers!

Dylan
Click to expand...
FOD Mitigation said:
First question would be how do you feel about that green?
Click to expand...
@Sublime one would be all over that color!
 
RustyRatRod said:
My first question is, how deep are your pockets? This is hobby ain't cheap, no matter the direction, but the pro touring crap (my opinion, because it's tacky as hell and been WAY overdone) can get VERY expensive. So keep that in mind.
Click to expand...
Really depends on what the market will take. I could go either way on this build. I agree that some pro-touring builds can go way beyond what I personally prefer, but I guess it's all subjective. But I tend to focus on the objective things related to driveability and safety. The best thing about these old cars in general, IMO, is their looks and vibe, but I think it'd be hard to argue that they perform and drive better than nearly any modern vehicle. So I try and focus on those aspects, and then address some livibility, because ultimately if someone isn't vibing with the interior it's just going to sit and go to waste. But it's a fine balance to keep their character and improve them. Too much improvement might neutralize the nostalgic feel some customers long for.
 
Elemental_Garage said:
I was actually browsing some used Gen 3 motors as you posted this haha, so you can see where my mind is going already, but I guess I'll see how builds in front of it go. But I do like the idea of a Hemi and T56 or 8-speed.
Click to expand...

Just be aware that it is starting to feel like a G3 swap is like an LS swap. Done for a reason, but loses the unique side to a build.

Not stopping me though, I am putting a 5.7 and T56 in a '73.

Elemental_Garage said:
Can you elaborate on what the spool-mount K frame is? Was it a specific crossmember that was different for a V8 vs. 6 or something?
Click to expand...

The k-frame supports the lower control arms and the motor. In '73 they changed the motor mounts to a threw bolt setup rather than the biscuit style. They bolt into a '67 to '76 A-Body so they can be swapped into the earlier cars. They also have a different sway bar setup, one that puts the sway bar through the middle of k-frame rather than in front of it.

Holley sells motor mounts to swap a G3 into an A-Body, but only for the '73+ spool mount k-frame.

Elemental_Garage said:
I think the wheels on there now are Jeep wheels of some kind, which is actually what got me thinking about a rally build. But I can't justify taking a customer base down to like 5% of the searching population.
Click to expand...

Never thought about a rally build so I don't have much input on them. It's an interesting rabbit trail though...

Elemental_Garage said:
Are there any gaps in terms of custom parts for these? Any time I pick up a new platform I try and find a few items to design and add to the roster. For the 67-72 C10, for example, there was a big lack of custom gauge bezels (at least ones that looked good and weren't just sheet metal) so that is something I tackled.

Any vendors to steer clear of on this platform?
Click to expand...

I'm struggling to think of gaps, I am sure there are some. The A-Body Mopar doesn't have the support that the E-Body or B-Body gets so there are things. But I am drawing a blank right now.

Used to be a really sweet dash insert (Rocky Mountain Dash), but they were too expensive to manufacture and expensive to buy. I am sure there are plenty of small parts that aren't reproduced. Maybe the '73+ sail panels?

How about electronics? I'd love to see someone do up a box that takes the early cruise control stick button inputs and put them on a CanBUS network so the OEM G3 PCM can run cruise control. Probably need a speed input into the same box that also puts the speed on the network, too. There are plenty of things the later cars run through the CanBUS network that can't be controlled or used when swapping into an old car due to the lack of support like that. But that's just me, no one else that I know has even talked about that. :D

Kind of struggling to give you good input on that part.

There was some stuff to avoid years ago, but they seemed to have fallen by the wayside or been bought and improved. Honestly, I can't say there is anyone to avoid, but it's my opinion for torsion bar suspension upgrades Bergman Auto Craft is where I would go and that for coil over conversion, HDK is the top supplier based on the product he offers and his customer service. There are certainly others, but those 2 bubble to the top in my mind.
 
Elemental_Garage said:
Really depends on what the market will take. I could go either way on this build. I agree that some pro-touring builds can go way beyond what I personally prefer, but I guess it's all subjective. But I tend to focus on the objective things related to driveability and safety. The best thing about these old cars in general, IMO, is their looks and vibe, but I think it'd be hard to argue that they perform and drive better than nearly any modern vehicle. So I try and focus on those aspects, and then address some livibility, because ultimately if someone isn't vibing with the interior it's just going to sit and go to waste. But it's a fine balance to keep their character and improve them. Too much improvement might neutralize the nostalgic feel some customers long for.
Click to expand...

I think you nailed the real thought behind pro-touring there. At least what I think it is. Drivability and safety. It's about making the car drive and work better than it did with the goal to equal (or exceed) that of a new car (within reason). And for me, that isn't just the suspension or brakes, it also how it runs including more power, economy and great drivability. And then follow up with making it more livable and the car will get drive all over kingdom come.

It's certainly easy to overdo it. I'm not going to say that I need 14.2" rotors and 4 piston Brembo calipers, nor the 275 series tires and 18" wheel they force me to, but wanting more is part of the hobby. I don't think it kills the idea of why I am down the road I am, even if it is more than I need.

And sometimes I think the over the top stuff isn't about making the car better, but instead to draw attention. Just my feeling, but I think most of those builds actually result in a car that drives worse. Not always, but sometimes it just seems like they are more "artwork" than functional.
 
Elemental_Garage said:
Hey all!

A few days ago we took a 1971 Dodge Demon in on trade for some equipment we no longer needed at our shop. I'm new to Dodge and to A-bodies in general. I'm trying to figure out what I want to do with this to make it a fun build. We mostly do pro-touring type of work, but open to anything really. Obviously as a shop our aim is to make money on our projects (at least enough to keep doing what we love), so I'm trying to balance that vs. what I personally would love to do if I was keeping this, which would be to make a pro-touring/rally Demon.

I have 3d scanning, printing, and a CNC at my fingertips, so I'm excited to develop some parts for this no matter what direction I decide to take this car. But totally open to ideas and thoughts about what you all would love to see in a build.

Here is what I'm starting with:

View attachment 1716157797

View attachment 1716157798

Thanks for any/all advice, and looking forward to learning from you all! Cheers!

Dylan
Click to expand...
Well obviously I am already a fan. Regardless of direction one thing I would check out is @HemiDenny he designs fabricates and even answers his own phone all things tubular K frame! He is on here and has about a million of us with his front end components. He is the best. Another great resource on geometry is @72bluNblu . There is just a wealth of knowledge on here, these guys, like you, do their own work, they are not key board warriors. When I was stuffing a Gen 3 in my 72 Demon the above mentioned guys plus many others on here saved me hours of work and a zillion dollars. Can’t wait to see where this goes! Thanks @toolmanmike for the heads up!
 
hi-impact colors are hot right now, so you've got that going for you.
it seems that buyers are leaning back toward more traditional type cars-- standard V8's with carbs or EFI over G3 swaps. stick v auto is a long drawn out battle, but i don't see any one being a hotter trend than the other, at the moment. however, an auto is usually an easier sell to a broader base. one thing that's currently trending is OD transmissions.

i would certainly address the brakes and suspension. you've got a great base to work with and stock torsion bar suspension can be made to handle very well and there are plenty of choices brakes wise that work wonderfully without breaking the bank.

that along with tastefully upgraded interior, some sharp rims and i'd say you'd be well on the way to a car that you could easily move once completed.
 
Sublime one said:
Well obviously I am already a fan. Regardless of direction one thing I would check out is @HemiDenny he designs fabricates and even answers his own phone all things tubular K frame! He is on here and has about a million of us with his front end components. He is the best. Another great resource on geometry is @72bluNblu . There is just a wealth of knowledge on here, these guys, like you, do their own work, they are not key board warriors. When I was stuffing a Gen 3 in my 72 Demon the above mentioned guys plus many others on here saved me hours of work and a zillion dollars. Can’t wait to see where this goes! Thanks @toolmanmike for the heads up!
Click to expand...
Awesome, thanks for the advice and pointers. Always happy to support other local (forum in this context) builders!
 
junkyardhero said:
hi-impact colors are hot right now, so you've got that going for you.
it seems that buyers are leaning back toward more traditional type cars-- standard V8's with carbs or EFI over G3 swaps. stick v auto is a long drawn out battle, but i don't see any one being a hotter trend than the other, at the moment. however, an auto is usually an easier sell to a broader base. one thing that's currently trending is OD transmissions.

i would certainly address the brakes and suspension. you've got a great base to work with and stock torsion bar suspension can be made to handle very well and there are plenty of choices brakes wise that work wonderfully without breaking the bank.

that along with tastefully upgraded interior, some sharp rims and i'd say you'd be well on the way to a car that you could easily move once completed.
Click to expand...

Awesome, thanks for the info! Perhaps some sort of hybrid solution could be in order with a 340 but a modern overdrive with a standalone controller for more highway comfort. I'll have to see if anyone makes standalone controllers for the 8HP, and either find adapters or make one.
 
Elemental_Garage said:
I'll have to see if anyone makes standalone controllers for the 8HP, and either find adapters or make one.
Click to expand...

Sound German Automotive is the only one I know of.


Edit - and the 8HP bellhousing pattern matches the SB block, minus one missing hole. Pretty sure there is a conversion flexplate required, but nothing needed to get it bolts to the back of the motor.
 
Stock interiors sell better than custom.

A hot 340 is always bringing cash.

Stock looking sells.

If you are looking to sell, leave the custom stuff out.

i like mini tubs, 70s feel hot rod look with tweaks to add performance. I'm building a 67 barracuda and am doing such things. Every time i add something like custom paint or EFI......i lower the number of people that would buy it.

Doesn't matter that i think its better.

A buyer tends to use these things against a guy.

I also wouldn't go out and buy all numbers hoses and clips.

$0.02

Welcome, lots of good info/ people on here. Choose wisely on both. Go gold
 
www.forabodiesonly.com

318/8 Speed Swap

I finally got my hands on an 8 speed transmission (8HP70) out of a 2018 Challenger this weekend. This particular one looks to be from an SRT 6.4 Hemi car. Supposedly, it only has 5,000 miles on it. I was able to get it mounted to a spare 318 I had in the shop. There are some custom adapter...
www.forabodiesonly.com www.forabodiesonly.com
 
clementine said:
Stock interiors sell better than custom.

A hot 340 is always bringing cash.

Stock looking sells.

If you are looking to sell, leave the custom stuff out.

i like mini tubs, 70s feel hot rod look with tweaks to add performance. I'm building a 67 barracuda and am doing such things. Every time i add something like custom paint or EFI......i lower the number of people that would buy it.

Doesn't matter that i think its better.

A buyer tends to use these things against a guy.

I also wouldn't go out and buy all numbers hoses and clips.

$0.02

Welcome, lots of good info/ people on here. Choose wisely on both. Go gold
Click to expand...

Appreciate the feedback! What do you mean by "I also wouldn't go out and buy all numbers hoses and clips."

What you're saying makes sense. Most of the custom stuff I've done has been at the request of a customer, so I wasn't seeking a buyer after. It's just so hard to NOT want to improve some of these things. Here is an ElCo I did where we tried to keep a lot of the improvement sublet. Things like DOT-approved projector headlights, better brakes, air-con, electric fans, etc.

1698246427012.png
 
Elemental_Garage said:
Appreciate the feedback! What do you mean by "I also wouldn't go out and buy all numbers hoses and clips."

What you're saying makes sense. Most of the custom stuff I've done has been at the request of a customer, so I wasn't seeking a buyer after. It's just so hard to NOT want to improve some of these things. Here is an ElCo I did where we tried to keep a lot of the improvement sublet. Things like DOT-approved projector headlights, better brakes, air-con, electric fans, etc.

View attachment 1716158084
Click to expand...
My absolute favorite year, the stance is perfect! But man they would swap ends in a hurry!
 
Elemental_Garage said:
Appreciate the feedback! What do you mean by "I also wouldn't go out and buy all numbers hoses and clips."

What you're saying makes sense. Most of the custom stuff I've done has been at the request of a customer, so I wasn't seeking a buyer after. It's just so hard to NOT want to improve some of these things. Here is an ElCo I did where we tried to keep a lot of the improvement sublet. Things like DOT-approved projector headlights, better brakes, air-con, electric fans, etc.

View attachment 1716158084
Click to expand...
A good example of upgrades without full custom.

I am a fan.

swapping a modern hemi works too. If doing that then I would keep the interior stock.
 
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