noob needs help with mileage - only 10 MPG!

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slantsixdan, rmchrgr,

Thanks again for all your replies and all the info.

It was about four weeks ago when I picked up the car and spoke to the mechanic, so I may not have remembered exactly what he said about that knock-like sound that occurs only at idle when the engine warms up.
I don't want to bad-mouth the mechanic on this forum.
I'll get in touch with him and ask about valve adjustment.
 
Why "ask about" valve adjustment instead of checking and doing valve adjustment? If you are at the mercy of a mechanic, it's a good chance your wallet will drain dry before your car's running right. There are lots of slant-6ers in the Portland area; if you post on slantsix.org someone will likely speak up to help you. Meanwhile, get the three books in this thread and follow the advice in post #29 of this present thread.
 
rmchrgr,
What my mechanic had to say was very similar to what you wrote above.
He said that the high leak down percentages are probably due to worn rings and/or valves, but that he can't be sure without taking the head off.

Yes he can know without taking the head off. BillGrissom is on the money here.

Before you pull the head, find out where the leak is coming from. Apply air thru the spark hole to each cylinder at TDC-compression stroke. Listen at exhaust pipe, carb throat, and valve cover. Since a solid-lifter engine, it could be as simple as the valves need adjusting since being held open by the cam.

I did this on my engine. I took the fitting from a Harbor Freight compression tester and screwed on an air compressor hose fitting. Make sure the valves are closed on the cylinder in question and give it some air, but not too much to turn over the engine. On mine I could hear air at the tail pipe from one cylinder which told me I have a bad exhaust valve on that cylinder.

Another simple trick is to add oil to the cylinder. If the compression improves with oil, it points to rings.

Leaky rings means an engine rebuild and big dollars. Leaky valves means a head rebuild and less dollars (or maybe just adjusting the valves). Bad compression between two adjacent cylinders means a head gasket and you get off cheap.

Either way you should adjust the valves. Too easy to eliminate that possiblity.
 
65DartGTconv,

Thanks for underlining what BillGrissom had to say.


slantsixdan,

I would much rather be working on this engine myself, and I'm motivated to learn. I know that in the end it will probably leave me and the car happier and my wallet fatter rather than flatter.
However, where I live I only have a carport, not a real garage. And the HOA of where I live specifically prohibits working on cars in carport/parking area. I know that's lame, but the car is completely shielded from the elements (I can at least say that).
If you're thinking "well, a guy in that situation should not've bought a classic car", I would have a hard time not agreeing with you.
A few months ago I was in need of a car and was about to buy used Subaru wagon. They're pretty decent cars, very reliable, and stand up well to abuse. But I just couldn't get excited about that Subaru. I realized that what I really wanted was '63-'66 Dart or Valiant. So that's how I ended up with this car.

I'll make a post on slantsix.org and see if I can find some local folks.
 
There's a guy in your area who has a Slant and a 904 for sale, already pulled out. Says it runs good, rebuilt in '86. "Very nice runner driver does not smoke." Guarantee you'd be the only guy showing up to buy it. Might be worth a look. Maybe you could bring it over to your guy and have him put it in. Then you could take apart the other one and find out what was wrong with it and rebuild it in your living room. :wink:

http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/pts/3383335085.html
 
Thanks for posting that, rmchrgr.
I guess I ought to consider that as an option.
Something tells me, though, that after the labor cost of having another engine put in my Valiant, I might as well go a head rebuild the engine it has now.
 
Swapping an engine in these old cars is not that hard. They're pretty simple and access is easy. The rebuild will cost a lot more than the swap.
 
Swapping an engine in these old cars is not that hard. They're pretty simple and access is easy. The rebuild will cost a lot more than the swap.


Absolutely correct. $100 for a running engine? You really can't go wrong. Plus, the guy is selling a lot of the peripherals which would be good to have. Even if you grab it just to have the parts on hand you'd be dollars ahead. $100 towards a complete rebuild is like a drop in the ocean. I'd grab both pieces if you can.

Probably be a days' work for a competent tech.
 
Why are we talking engine swaps? This comes down to valve adjustment and carburetor before anything.

Renato, you can do a valve adjustment in less than an hour in the carport. I'm sure they just don't want major things like engine swaps and whatnot done in there. Just go buy yourself a valve cover gasket. Get the engine up to running temp. Pop the valve cover off and get yourself a ratchet with an extension. At that point just follow the valve adjustment procedure and it's wham bam and you're done. Put your new valve cover and gasket on and marvel at how much better your engine idles. Setting the valves to the looser side of spec makes them a little louder but better for mileage. Setting to the tighter side makes for a quieter idling engine but your mileage might suffer ever so slightly (talking 1mpg or less).

If you're still running bad, you're going to need a carburetor. You can get the best Holley 1920 rebuilder in the world and he wouldn't be able to fix a piece of junk remanufactured carb that's already too far gone. Swap on a NOS carb from a guy like Dan and you're guaranteed to not have any carb problems for years to come. Either way, even if you had to get a new engine, you're still going to need a new carb. Putting a piece of crap remanned carb on a new engine just means your new engine is going to act like the old one.
 
Why are we talking engine swaps? This comes down to valve adjustment and carburetor before anything.

35% leak down? No valve adjustment is going to cure that, neither will a new carb. No way to adjust cooked valves. Sorry.

But hey, what do I know. I suppose it's worth a try though I believe it would be an exercise in futility. Why not get your feet wet and give it a shot? Would be interesting to see the results. I've been known to be wrong every so often... Can't say I have a whole lot of experience adjusting valves but again, there is really no way to adjust out that much leak down. There is a sealing issue that is causing bigger problems than a valve adjustment.

I still believe you would be wise to go grab that CL engine since it may help you if you need it for parts. $100 and a few hours time loading it up aint gonna put a big dent in your life. Heck, might even be an adventure.

As far as the apartment thing - I used to live in apartment in Queens, NY. I had no garage. I built a little workbench inside. I worked on diffs in there and all kinds of crap. I took apart a 440 once, had a transmission on the floor for years there. (yes, I lived alone) I was out in the freezing cold fixing stuff on my old car and truck in the street more times than I like to admit. No one said I was the brightest bulb but when you have a passion for something, then you do what you can to feed the need. I gained knowledge, experience and tools over those times when I was learning. No other way to do it. It killed me when I had to take it somewhere to have something fixed but yes, I did realize that some things were beyond my capability at the time.

If he's asking stuff like this here, he probably has never done anything like this which would mean he has no tools or experiences to go on. Tough call on what to do - there's always the worry about screwing up something worse or not knowing how to do this or that. I understand, we've all been there at some point.

I say get involved though and start doing something though rather than relying on a bunch of internet goofballs taking guesses at some mystery problem. Bottom line to me, at some point either him or his guy is going to have to dig into that motor and figure out why it runs like crap.

Get started!
 
I agree that the motor could be coming up on it's last leg, but if we take the guys experience and living situation into account, then we should start him out with the simple/cheap/free fixes and then go from there.

Slant sixes are tough engines and you can still make a dying engine run well enough to get you around town without being too annoying. Maybe for a few dollars we can scrape another couple years out of this engine with some better mileage? By that time he could possibly have built up his experience and have a new place so he can go buy a new motor and install it himself.
 
I agree that the motor could be coming up on it's last leg, but if we take the guys experience and living situation into account, then we should start him out with the simple/cheap/free fixes and then go from there.

Slant sixes are tough engines and you can still make a dying engine run well enough to get you around town without being too annoying. Maybe for a few dollars we can scrape another couple years out of this engine with some better mileage? By that time he could possibly have built up his experience and have a new place so he can go buy a new motor and install it himself.

Agreed. Just keep in mind that it's delaying the inevitable. Do it for the experience. :cheers:
 
my 383 was lucky if it got 6 miles to the gallon on a good day! but it was always fun to mat the gas and see if the speedo would top out before the gas gauge hit empty!
 
Once again guys, big thanks all around from this noob.

I'm motivated to learn, and its definitely worth trying the out simple/cheap/free fixes before going for and engine swap or rebuild.

One thing about that engine listed on Craigslist: it may not be any better than the engine I have now, right? The engine I have now seems to run well, and if I hadn't mentioned the low 10mpg to my mechanic he wouldn't have done the leak down test. In other words, that Craigslist engine may also get about 13mpg (which is what mine is getting after a carb overhaul and putting in an electronic ignition). Granted is hard to go wrong for $100 and doubtless I could use some of the parts on that engine.

If anyone reading this is in the greater Portland, Oregon area, please PM me. I probably can learn to do something like valve adjustment from a manual, but I'd really like to be able learn from someone who has done a lot of tinkering on their own slant six. If you're willing to help me learn how to do some of these things, I'm more than happy to supply as many pizzas and six packs as it takes.

Thanks again for all the informative replies.
I've learned a lot already from you guys and I greatly appreciate it.
 
35% leak down? No valve adjustment is going to cure that

Wanna make a bet? Valves adjusted too tight can and will cause that much leakdown and more.

Can't say I have a whole lot of experience adjusting valves

Okeh, we all gotta start somewhere, but then you don't have much ice to stand on when you start talking about what can and can't result from something you have no experience with.

there is really no way to adjust out that much leak down.

Still wrong, no matter how many times you say it. Think about it: a valve held open, off its seat, will...class? Anyone? Bueller? Right, it will leak.

I say get involved though and start doing something though rather than relying on a bunch of internet goofballs taking guesses

Not all of us are guessing. Some of us are taking a systematic approach to diagnosis and guidance.
 
Wanna make a bet? Valves adjusted too tight can and will cause that much leakdown and more.


Not all of us are guessing. Some of us are taking a systematic approach to diagnosis and guidance.


My own experience tells me anything over 20% leak down is probably (not always) a mechanical malady. I did powertrain at a dealership for the last few years, we were generally never wrong when it came to those numbers, almost always a cooked valve, broken valve spring or a seat that dropped out. These are mostly hydraulic cams we're dealing with so apples to oranges but I'm just not sure that such a significant amount of leak down can be adjusted out.

When I think of a lash adjustment with mechanical lifters, it's generally a few thousandths of an inch. Taking that into consideration, I'm skeptical that over 1/3 of the cylinder fill volume is leaking because of poor valve adjustment. Prove me wrong, I'd genuinely be interested in seeing it. Even then, if the lash has backed off that much, I would suspect worn or broken parts. Just my 2 cents, take it as you wish.
 
If the lash is too loose ("backed off", as you say) then it can force cylinder pressure past the rings. Probably not 30%, and that's probably not what's going on here since it doesn't cause rough hot idle or very poor MPG.

But if the lash is too tight, the valve will be held open and cylinder pressure will sail right through the not-fully-closed valve, which will show up as high leakdown numbers (and rough hot idle, and poor MPG). If we knew where the leakdown was escaping (out the intake, out the exhaust, through the crankcase) we'd have a clearer idea of what's going on. But valve seat recession can certainly cause the valve lash to tighten up.

The owner of this car needs to pop off the valve cover and spend half an hour's quality time with a couple feeler gauges and a wrench.
 
Very first thing is a general tune-up for diagnostics purposes

Does this still have adjustable lifters, that is, mechanical? (Not familiar with newer slants)

If so adjust the valves

Run a compression/ leak down check

Check the timing, and I don't just mean initial, or "idle" timing

Check that the mechanical advance advances, and that the vacuum advance works, and check how much advance you are actually getting.

Hold the throttle at an RPM to simulate "highway cruise" and listen and look down the carb throat. If you hear a "popping" or can look down the throat and see gas dripping into the carb, you have a problem, float level too high, etc.

Also, what exactly are you using to check MPG? Speedo? You sure it's correct? You have a GPS? Use that instead.


I think I suggested adjusting the valves a long time ago.

then 67Dart273 shocks us all with the breaking news that he doesn't like me,
 
GDAY .
Regarding the knocking noise at warm up. only at idle
The same symptoms were occuring to my /6 recently.
I could never get the engine running 100%
I pulled apart the engine and the cam was cactus.
One lobe was very worn along with the lifter.
others were starting to wear.

This may be what is happening to your slant. It would explain rough idle( an inlet valve may not be opening) that cannot be fixed by normal tune up ,carb fix etc.

Along with those leak down numbers( assuming the valve adjustment is correct) it appears an engine re build/replacement may be needed.
I hope I am wrong,as I realise you probably dont have the skill/knowledge to do this yourself.
A second hand engine replacement may be the cheapest (not best )option.

Definitely get a set of feeler gauges and basic tools( sockets spanners) and learn to do the valve adjustment.
Check the list in this link for "valve adjustment procedure"
http://www.slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38446
lots of good reading in that list/site.

Good luck.
regards .
Brendan
 
If your towing a 5th Wheel!! Ya it will get 10mpg My 71 Dart 3 speed on the tree 1b carb got 21mpg on HWY;you got something going on with that motor vacuum,fuel leak,. On a bad day you should be getting 15 to 18 average........
 
Hi Renato,

Sorry for the delay in replying to your question to me on the Holley vs. Carter. The answer is, just my experience and opinion. I'm no mechanical or hydraulic engineer. The Holleys seemed to deteriorate more with age, soaking in carb cleaner, wear, and rebuilds. After re-reading the whole chain of your post, I have a couple of 'geezer' thoughts.

1) All the other folks have had good suggestions, most all of which are cheap fixes or checks well worth doing on any older car; a tranny check (I didn't see if you had had a tranny shop open it up and check the clutches, pressures, etc), brake adjustment and check, valve adjustment (if not hydraulics), etc. are either fairly cheap at a shop (you have already done many or all), or easy to do in your carport without bringing too much attention to you; as long as projects are (or appear to be) wrapped up each day, as opposed to having a car on blocks and parts and pieces strewn around with oil running down the gutter (the kind of thoughtless behavior that resulted in HOA 'no car work' rules), I bet the HOA will be silent.

2) With an automatic tranny, depending on your differential ratio, and a tired engine with a 1920 Holley, 13 or 14 mpg combined city/highway may not be that bad. My all-time favorite slant 6, my 74 Swinger with auto, A/C, and PS-PB never got better than about 17/18 hwy and 14-15 combined, even when it was fresh from a one-year bumper to bumper resto. But I loved that car, just seemed to 'fit.' After 250k and significant work again being needed, I let it go to a young couple who needed some cheap reliable transport, and moved on; it was my last slant 'daily driver.'

3) Now that I understand your personal situation a bit through the chain, i.e. no garage and an HOA, I'm backing away from my suggestion to mess with a Carter instead of a Holley, UNLESS you want to check the vintage bone yards for a Carter BBS that has linkage that will bolt up to your car without having to fab new parts, and have it rebuilt as an experiment. Your car should have the throttle rod that comes out of the firewall and goes directly into a rubber grommet on the carb. But the 80 engine would have been set up for a cable throttle. So if you found a good old Carter, it would likely have been set up for the rod. If not, you may not want to mess with a cable-back-to-rod conversion.

4) Also, your 80 engine should have hydraulic lifters, which negates the valve adjust issue, unless what you have is an 80 block that was rebuilt with all-mechanical valve lifters.

5) I'll wrap up with a philisophical question. What do you really want? Your mechanic seems to have nursed the mileage up to within the low end of reasonable, and identified that you have some eventual internal engine issues. If you want max mileage, you could look for a late 80s or 90s Nissan Sentra or Toyota Tercel. They were tough and dependable and my wife had a Sentra with a manual that got 40 mpg on the highway. Oh, yeah, it wouldn't be a cool old Valiant!

So, you may want to think about it this way. Best case, with your car with an auto tranny and everything tip-top, maybe you could get 18/20 mpg hwy and 15 or 16 combined. So that would be a what, a 20% or so better mileage? How much $ and pain are you willing to spend to get there?

So look at how many miles you drive, and what that would be in a year, at 3.75/gallon. If you are commuting a couple hours every day, well, I'd agree it may pay to spend the outlay to improve the mileage. On the other hand, if you don't drive that much on a daily basis, and you like the car, and it generally runs well, and (I assume) you have a fairly low initial investment, is it really worth stressing and spending large dollars to try to squeeze a couple more mpg out of it?

If you are interested in learning how cars and engines tick, and getting greasy, that's cool. If it was me (it ain't), I'd probabaly not be able to resist continued tinkering (and I'll never, never again live in an HOA (although when they send me to the old geezer home, I guess I'm done). Sounds like you need to find a garage where you can learn and 'play.' And maybe another car so when you have to tear into things, you aren't trapped into working all night to try to get it back together, or cab fare for a week.

Advice: as long as it's running well, you are enjoying it, and not spending hundreds of dollars a month on gas, you may not need to stress on it. I don't mean give up, just no stress; try things as you can and see what works! Based on your description (and assuming your wrench, who seems to have made progress and is likely not an idiot), when the engine finally starts its death spiral (who knows when that'll be?! But you'll know...), it will be plenty of time to make choices about what to do with an engine rebuild or swap.

The whole idea of an old car is to have fun and have folks look at it and say, 'Wow, what a cool old car!' If you need stress, get a copy of the 2012 IRS regulations and start reading them...

Have some fun with the old gal. Cheers! :thumblef:
 
Just thought I'd clarify something here, the Slant had solid lifters THROUGH the 1980 model year.

Now whether his engine has 'em or not is a mystery but I thought that was an important little tidbit in regards to this particular discussion.

Carry on.
 
To clarify: Linkage hookup is by year and application, not by carb manufacturer. There were both Carter BBS and Holley 1920 carbs for the rotating-rod type throttle linkage used on '60-'66 A-bodies with slant-6 engine (except '65-'66 with factory A/C, which used cable).

As has been pointed out, the 1980 engine will have solid lifters that require periodic adjustment. 1981 was the first year for hydraulic lifters (except for a small production test run of hydro-lifter engines in 1978).

I don't agree that the present mileage is reasonable. It doesn't look as if the vehicle owner has availed himself of the advice that's been offered in this thread. And I disagree with what the mechanic (is reported to have) said in response to the vehicle owner's inquiries; I question the mechanic's knowledge and competence.
 
slantsixdan,

I'm doing my best to avail myself of the advice and info in this thread.
I've ordered two of the books mentioned in your "Post subject: New To Slant-6 Car Ownership? Buy These Three Books!" post on slantsix.org.
I also registered at slantsix.org and am waiting for the admin there to approve my registration.

I'm really a green noob here, starting from square zero.

Ideally I'd like to befriend someone who is local with a slant six of their own, and who is willing to help me learn a few things, starting with doing my own valve adjustment.

Also, at this point I'm inclined to give my mechanic the benefit doubt and probably have not accurately remember everything he told by the time I got around to posting on this forum.

And thanks for your informative posts.

13mpg just does not seem reasonable at all. Though I'm total noob, I'm worried that such low mileage indicates something is seriously wrong with this vehicle. Unfortunately I don't know what that something is.
 
Captain Easy,

Thanks for your input.

What I'm most worried about is that the low mileage I'm getting now indicates something very wrong with this car.

I posted this in a earlier reply, but I almost got a Subaru wagon, but just couldn't get excited about it. I really do want this Valiant, and I'm motivated to learn how to do things like valve adjustment.
 
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