octane levels

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sweatybetty

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ok guys, ive been following some of these threads here and keep seeing octane and compression ratio. my Q is how do you know what octane gas will work with say, 10-1 compression. is there some formula or is this just common knowledge?
also i understand that you can bump up 1 point with aluminum heads?
thanx sb
 
Just seems to be common knowledge. Not only compression ratio factors into it. Things like piston design, head chamber design, ignition timing, outside conditions, like you mentioned aluminum heads.

Seems to be '10:1' is 'max' for 91/93 octane with cast iron heads. And 11:1 is 'max' for aluminum heads for their tendancy to remove heat faster from the combustion chamber. Excessive heat = can lead to detonation. Octane is rated in 'antiknock' resistance. Charles law, higher pressure = higher temperature. Lower pressure = lower temperature. The more pressure you put into that cylinder (compression ratio), the more heat, and the more 'antiknock' (octane) you need to safely run it without detonating.


Atleast thats my understanding of it at the moment. :D
 
Pretty simple. Always use the highest octane you can get. I run 93 Octane in my little 273. Gas isn't what it used to be and running 10-1 compression I would surely run the highest octane.
 
Just seems to be common knowledge. Not only compression ratio factors into it. Things like piston design, head chamber design, ignition timing, outside conditions, like you mentioned aluminum heads.

Seems to be '10:1' is 'max' for 91/93 octane with cast iron heads. And 11:1 is 'max' for aluminum heads for their tendancy to remove heat faster from the combustion chamber. Excessive heat = can lead to detonation. Octane is rated in 'antiknock' resistance. Charles law, higher pressure = higher temperature. Lower pressure = lower temperature. The more pressure you put into that cylinder (compression ratio), the more heat, and the more 'antiknock' (octane) you need to safely run it without detonating.


Atleast thats my understanding of it at the moment. :D

The head chamber design and the duration of the cam has everything to do with the static compression you can get away with.

I have a 360 with iron 64cc magnum heads and zero deck flat top pistons and a XE268 cam. This makes for 10.6:1 compression and the engine runs just fine on 89 octane, never tried 87 and mostly use 93 because it's only a $1.50 difference on a fill.

This works because of the closed chamber and ideal quench with the flat top piston.

Anyway, a big cam bleeds off a lot pressure so an engine with a near stock cam and 10:1 compression may ping like the dickens but put a cam with a lot duration and no problem and a real BIG cam you may get away with as much as 12:1.

So, you can't just through numbers around, you need to know the chamber design, the size cam and the head material to have any ideal of what you can run.
 
wait so if i run zero deck with 72cc heads what octane should i run 91?

"Things like piston design, head chamber design, ignition timing, outside conditions, like you mentioned aluminum heads. " and cam size change what octane you can get away with...and compression ratio....
 
I always run the highest octane I can get at the pump (93), simply put, it's just better for any engine, as it's a cleaner burning fuel, and you get better mileage out of it. So why not? The cost difference is minimal, and likely cheaper on the long run, due to carbon buid up and other effects of cheaper fuel. I love octane:drinkers:
 
dgc333 and I have very similar engines. I run 91 octane up here in Canada as it is the best we can get. Not a hint of pinging coming from my engine. As most have stated, there are to many variables to be able to put a specific number for your compression before you will get pinging.

Jack
 
My 11 to 1 comp. stroker runs fine with 93 not that is on the street that much,but at the track i mix in 110...
 
Octane is just a number. It varies by part of the country, brand, and in some cases, street address of the filling station. Very, very general guidelines when using iron open chamber (Mopar type) stock heads): 87-89 octane can take about 130-140psi, 91-93 (hi test) can take about 160-180psi of cylinder pressure. Unfortunately, cylinder pressure has very little to do with static compression ratio. And that's what everyone tries to use for comparison. You cant compare two engines, even when built identically, using local fuel from two different sources. Even if the are the same published octane rating. Use a different length rod, smaller modern chambers, make use of quench effects, run tight clearances to keep oil out of the chambers, run coatings, run aluminum heads, or run modern cam lobes and centerlines, and you can raise the threshold of detonation, and in turn run more static ratio and get more power from the lower octane fuels. The simplest way to see what you may have trouble with, is to use the many online calculators to see what you have for dynamic compression ratio. That takes into account the rod length, and the cam timing events to give a realistic value for your engine. This is assuming you are doing the machining right enough to have values that are accurate. In "dynamic compression" speak anything near 7:1 is sluggish and will lack low end. anything around 8-8.1:1 is snappy, but may require at least the 91 octane 10% ethanol stuff I have around me. above 8.2:1 you will need high test, and you should be making use of parts designed with pump gas in mind. A typical 340, lets say with TRW "10.5"1 forged pistons, and the X heads and a modern cam, like the XE268, should end up about 9.3:1 static, and 8.25:1 dynamic. With no parts to work against detonation, this engine may need to have the timing curve carefully setup, and may need pump premium all the time. While the 505 i recently did, has dished pistons and tight quench, closed chamber aluminum heads, and a long rod, plus a cam that bleeds off pressure. And it has 10.6:1 static, and 8.2:1 dynamic. It runs great on high test, but should be able to run 89 once it's fully tuned. The difference in power from 9.3 to 10.6 is about 8% accross the board. That's just shy of 30+ hp on a typical 360hp engine. And it means any fuel, any where, can be bought and safely run.
 
and i do i base the type of octane i use off of the dynamic compression or static or the overall compression?
 
ok so if i have like 10.5 overall and i have like 8.8 dynamic does that mean i can run 89? or jsut go with 91
 
8.8 with open chamber iron heads will be in detonation trouble with 93.
 
if i zero deck it will give me 10.5 compression how will i run pump gas on this? this is why i only want like 9.5
 
and with a clearance of .050 and a .028 gasket i should be at 10.1

Don't know where you get 10.1 from those numbers but it calculates out to 9:1. Having the pistons 0.050" in the hole with 72cc heads just does not add up to 10 to 1 compression.

This calculator takes into consideration everything that effects compression;

http://www.csgnetwork.com/compcalc.html
 
i jsut did it and it gave me 9.829892238258487

but im going to zero deck it since i found a good local machine shop
 
i jsut did it and it gave me 9.829892238258487

but im going to zero deck it since i found a good local machine shop

You are using the calcultor wrong;

Here is an example;

Enter Bore/Stroke Designation Type
1 = Inches 2 = Millimeters =1
Enter Cylinder Bore Size =4.030 (assuming 30 over)
Enter Piston Stroke Length = 3.58 (360)
Enter Head Gasket Bore Diameter = 4.1 (they are always bigger than the bore, Felpro is 4.180)
Enter Compressed Head Gasket Thickness = 0.028 (number you quote)
Enter Combustion Chamber Volume In CCs = 72 (number you quote)
Enter Piston Dome Volume In CCs Negative For Dished Pistons (Use '-') = -5 (KB107 you keep talking about)
Enter Piston Deck Clearance Negative If ABOVE Deck (Use '-') : = 0.050 (number you quote)

Calculated Engine Compression Ratio = 9.00258006699916 :1
 
ooooooooooooooo wait it says enter the - if above the deck but i thought its even with the deck so its jsut 5.00 not -5.00 oooo i got it now nvm ok but im going to zero deck it so that compression is at 10.1 with a .028 gasket i knew something was wrong
 
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