Oil Additives Solid Cam??

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I caution everyone not to get caught up in the ZDDP oil discussion because unless you're a Petroleum Chemist there's a big pile of disinformation floating around the internet especially as it pertains to oil classifications.

The simple truth is that engine builders such as Hughes recommends a minimum level of 1200 ppm of ZDDP and according to Valvolines own spec sheet their VR-1 has it so I use it.

http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/VR-1_Racing_Motor_Oil.pdf

Terry
 
i believe u in the fact that there are lies out there! but why shouldn't we be getting some of these Petrolium Chemists on here! i dn't know about u but its not enough for me to just say it will be fine. i have to buy a tranny that will last and thats gona cost me and it scares me to think of having to rebuild my slant because i could have spent 10 bucks on an additive and never had to worry about my motor. im only 19 so maybe im just not faithful enough tho trust "new". i grew up on old like most on here and just don't want my inexperiance to cost me a motor and work cuz my DD died...

no offense ment to any one, just don't want to have the reliable info hidden because im lazy to go find it, cuz i have called oil places and they are just like uhhh... i don't know... and hughes has screwed me before so there...
 
i just turned 20...and was 19 in july...my motor is upgraded fully and ive been all of this asking question stuff. I only post info that i have read off of here...Listen to the people on here they know what they are talking about.
 
Quote, i dn't know about u but its not enough for me to just say it will be fine.

And that's why 1 put in one small bottle of EOS at every oil change, just to be safe. The engine doesn't have a catylitic converter or O2 sensor so I don't care.

Last year I talked to the oil companies that would talk to me, about ZDDP levels, and settled on Valvoline. Incidentally Royal Purple didn't want to discuss it other than to say their oil was the best.

Terry
 
demon seed said:
Quote, i dn't know about u but its not enough for me to just say it will be fine.

And that's why 1 put in one small bottle of EOS at every oil change, just to be safe. The engine doesn't have a catylitic converter or O2 sensor so I don't care.

Last year I talked to the oil companies that would talk to me, about ZDDP levels, and settled on Valvoline. Incidentally Royal Purple didn't want to discuss it other than to say their oil was the best.

Terry
Click to expand...

Thank You! thats what i was looking for. something to back up the idea, just as u had stated earlier there are lies and there answers and im just looking to find those, as is everyone else. so it still looks like VR-1 10w30 with GM EOS or BG MOA.
 
Should just get the BRAD PENN OIL then its 4.99 a qt and has more zinc in it than vr1 with the additive...so saves money and you know its good oil
 
nope check ebay... its 4.99 a qt shippings like 7 but I think they combine for lower shipping
 
i hate to say it like this but DO NOT TRUST ANDTHING OFF EBAY........
my roomate just bought a zz4 rotating assembly and when it got here there wasnt a single piece of zz4 in that kit it was all knock off junk..... not saying they would do it with oil but just not worth the risk in my opinion.

travis

btw i have a hydro motor that gets conv valvoline but my old bsa race bike got redline oil with the gm additive the additive is good and oil is up to you
 
0lddart said:
i hate to say it like this but DO NOT TRUST ANDTHING OFF EBAY........
my roomate just bought a zz4 rotating assembly and when it got here there wasnt a single piece of zz4 in that kit it was all knock off junk..... not saying they would do it with oil but just not worth the risk in my opinion.

travis

btw i have a hydro motor that gets conv valvoline but my old bsa race bike got redline oil with the gm additive the additive is good and oil is up to you
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yea i found a place that sells it near me for 5 bucks a quart on the shelf so no reason to pay 8 bucks per quart in shipping!
 
Flat tappet engines only need 1110-1200 ppm of phosphorus (anti-wear component of ZDDP). See CJ-4/SM HDEO & Flat Tappet Valve Train Protection. Excessive levels of phosphorus can lead to increased engine deposits (>1400 ppm) and cam spalling (>2000 ppm). Any good Heavy Duty Engine Oil (HDEO) has all of the ZDDP to protect flat tappet engines. If you're running very heavy valve springs, you can use an HDEO with more than 1200 ppm of phosphorus like the CI-4/SL 15W-40 oils.

Unless your engine oil is running very hot, a 30 weight HDEO (0W-30, 5W-30, 10W-30) should be fine. If ambient temperatures never drop below freezing, you can safely use a 15W-40 as well. Excessively thick oils (like 20W-50) just waste horsepower and fuel.

As for adding ZDDP to engine oil, are any of you calculating the amount of ZDDP to add for a final concentration of 1200 ppm? Or do you just dump it in and hope for the best?

ACCCC HDEO List
 
fjr said:
Flat tappet engines only need 1110-1200 ppm of phosphorus (anti-wear component of ZDDP). See CJ-4/SM HDEO & Flat Tappet Valve Train Protection. Excessive levels of phosphorus can lead to increased engine deposits (>1400 ppm) and cam spalling (>2000 ppm). Any good Heavy Duty Engine Oil (HDEO) has all of the ZDDP to protect flat tappet engines. If you're running very heavy valve springs, you can use an HDEO with more than 1200 ppm of phosphorus like the CI-4/SL 15W-40 oils.

Unless your engine oil is running very hot, a 30 weight HDEO (0W-30, 5W-30, 10W-30) should be fine. If ambient temperatures never drop below freezing, you can safely use a 15W-40 as well. Excessively thick oils (like 20W-50) just waste horsepower and fuel.

As for adding ZDDP to engine oil, are any of you calculating the amount of ZDDP to add for a final concentration of 1200 ppm? Or do you just dump it in and hope for the best?

ACCCC HDEO List
Click to expand...

i was looking at the brad penn list and it had numbers in that range so i dont think i'll have to run an additive
 
My engine guy HIGHLY recommended the Brad Penn oil. Case of 12 quarts runs me $50. Definitely the way to go. No dealing with high priced additives and it flat out works.
 
dusterdon said:
My engine guy HIGHLY recommended the Brad Penn oil. Case of 12 quarts runs me $50. Definitely the way to go. No dealing with high priced additives and it flat out works.
Click to expand...

good to hear! i have to go to a race shop to get it, they stock it 10w-30 5.38 Qt
 
i did a lot of home work on this topic for when i built my motor mopar calls for 1200/1300 parts per mil/ of ZDDP most iol is well below that but i did find one that is well over the numbers need and that is kendel gt 1 and you can buy it over the counter the parts per mil on it is 2270 which as you can see more than meet your needs im not saying to use it im just giving you what i found out when i checked the best thing is for you to check for yourself you can find all you need to know on the internet just look up the oil company and do a search after doing it for myself i will use kendel you should also know that brad penn iol has nothing to do with kendel oil they just bought and old kendel oil company building and equipment to this point kendel will not hook up with kendel and check the cost
 
I use the hughes high zinc additive for solid cams.

It comes out like molasses and sticks to the moving parts when the engine is cold.

I tried the lucas stuff and it is very thin and does not seem to give the protection that the Hughes stuff does.
 
fjr said:
Flat tappet engines only need 1110-1200 ppm of phosphorus (anti-wear component of ZDDP). See CJ-4/SM HDEO & Flat Tappet Valve Train Protection. Excessive levels of phosphorus can lead to increased engine deposits (>1400 ppm) and cam spalling (>2000 ppm). Any good Heavy Duty Engine Oil (HDEO) has all of the ZDDP to protect flat tappet engines. If you're running very heavy valve springs, you can use an HDEO with more than 1200 ppm of phosphorus like the CI-4/SL 15W-40 oils.

Unless your engine oil is running very hot, a 30 weight HDEO (0W-30, 5W-30, 10W-30) should be fine. If ambient temperatures never drop below freezing, you can safely use a 15W-40 as well. Excessively thick oils (like 20W-50) just waste horsepower and fuel.

As for adding ZDDP to engine oil, are any of you calculating the amount of ZDDP to add for a final concentration of 1200 ppm? Or do you just dump it in and hope for the best?

ACCCC HDEO List
Click to expand...

Yes, very nice, but what was left out of the articles is the EPA mandated changes to these CI-4 and CJ-4 oils in the U.S.. That being that to allow the catylitic converters in heavy diesel trucks to survive, the ZDDP package must not exceed 800 PPM. Seems that the engine manufactorers have convinced the EPA that the zinc plates out on their catylist which supposedly screws up the converter. Because of this edict diesel oil in the U.S. have been "reformulated" starting in 2008 and the refiners in Canada started doing the same in 2009. As an example Shell Canada refineries by the end of this year are supposed to be churning out Rotella T at 800 PPM. Also most engine manufactorers don't mind the reduction because most if not all are using roller lifters anyway that don't require the ZDDP package.

As far as "hope for the best" not likely in my case, I'm banking on 1600-1800 PPM.

Terry
 
The 800 ppm phosphorus limit is for Starburst oils (ie oil meeting the requirement of ILSAC GF-4). API CJ-4 limits phosphorus to 1200 ppm.

http://www.apicj-4.org/performance_specs.html

Shell does not list phosphorus content on the Rotella T CJ-4 data sheet. There is more to an engine oil than phosphorus content and Shell states that their CJ-4 Rotella T has significantly more anti-wear protection than CI-4+ Rotella T.

Are you sure that Rotella T has a maximum of 800 ppm of phosphorus?
 
Are you sure that Rotella T has a maximum of 800 ppm of phosphorus?

I was told by a "person" with Shell at the Scotford Refinery that the ZDDP package currently in all the Rotella T oils will be backed down to 800 PPM by the end of this year certainly by middle of 2010. All the refineries in Canada are playing the EPA follow the leader game in this case, to some degree it saves them a little money and they can take the ECO/Green high road. Also it is more so the Zinc part of the ZDDP package that the cam lobes depend on to form a microscopic coating in a flat tappet engine and this coating literally runs off the lobes when the engine is shutdown. You'll also notice that in those spec sheets you've highlighted they list the phosphorous as maximums or "limits", no where do they mention "minimum concentrations".

Terry
 
The anti-wear component of ZDDP is phosphorus and not zinc.
http://www.valvoline.com/faqs/motor-oil/racing-oil/73 (See What is zinc?)

The base oil is also an important factor in an oil's anti-wear protection. If you are so concerned about ZDDP (or phosphorus), maybe should be looking at other HDEOs.

Chevron Delo 400 0W-30 contains 1140 ppm of P

Esso XD-3 Extra 0W-30 contains 1110 ppm of P

The API service categories are PERFORMANCE specifications rather than FORMULATION specifications. It doesn't matter how the oil additive package is formulated if it meets or exceeds the performance criteria. The phosphorus limit is purely for emission reasons as you have suggested.
 
fjr said:
The anti-wear component of ZDDP is phosphorus and not zinc.
http://www.valvoline.com/faqs/motor-oil/racing-oil/73 (See What is zinc?)

The base oil is also an important factor in an oil's anti-wear protection. If you are so concerned about ZDDP (or phosphorus), maybe should be looking at other HDEOs.

Chevron Delo 400 0W-30 contains 1140 ppm of P

Esso XD-3 Extra 0W-30 contains 1110 ppm of P

The API service categories are PERFORMANCE specifications rather than FORMULATION specifications. It doesn't matter how the oil additive package is formulated if it meets or exceeds the performance criteria. The phosphorus limit is purely for emission reasons as you have suggested.
Click to expand...

Whether it's the zinc component or the phosphorus, Hughes Engines says it's the Zinc, that is the anti wear component doesn't matter a hill of beans because both find their way into the oil using one additive, ZDDP. The point of this thread is the reductions of the package in oils being sold today both north and south of the border. So FJR if you want to sit here and debate black is black but sometimes white according to this writeup do it with someone else. By the way I used to work for Imperial Oil and during those 20 years would never use any of their oils being sold to the public mostly because of crap found in their supposed brand new, fresh from the refinery, barreled oils. This was confirmed by third party laboratory testing. Have a nice day.

http://www.hughesengines.com/TechArticles/207engineoilsflattappetcamszinc.php

Terry
 
I think Hughes is calling ZDDP zinc just because it's easier for most people to remember zinc dithiophosphate as zinc. I'm suggesting that if ZDDP is really important to you, look for the phosphorus content in engine oil because the ZDDP content is almost never provided.

The information you've given is anecdotal and I've tried to provide references for everything I've written. If you have problem with Rotella T, Delo 400, and XD-3 Extra, , obviously you should stick with the Hughes products.

I still think any CI-4/SL or CJ-4/SM HDEO will provide plenty of antiwear protection for flat tappet engines. I personally don't have a problem with using any name brand HDEO in my slant six.
 
well thanks for the great info! im looking into using brad penn or VR1.

thx guys!
 
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