Oil pump hell.

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amusingarts

amusingarts

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I built my 273 quite a few years ago with a high output oil pump (I was getting about 75 psi on my mechanical oil gauge).

Recently I've actually started driving this car and after about 200 miles I noticed smoke out of the exhaust. I've also noticed dirty plugs and an oil film inside my new exhaust pipes.

I said to myself, "OK, high output oil pump bad. Must install normal pump."
I bought said Mellin standard pump, installed it, and could not get it to prime with the priming rod. I say this based on the fact that while I was turning the priming rod with a drill I could get no movement in the oil in my oil gauge supply line, which is translucent plastic.

So, I pulled the pan again to inspect everything and it all looked good. I pulled the new pump and test pumped it in a vat of oil and it pumps like crazy. the pick up is parallel with the bottom deck of the block and I'm at a loss to understand why I don't have pressure.

After using the rod for priming without success, I pulled the plugs and cranked it with the starter. Still no movement of oil up to the gauge. Removed the new filter (PH8A) and found it to be pretty full of oil so I topped it of and reinserted it.

My question is could there be a problem with the oil relief valve? Could the relief valve in the filter or the pump be causing this problem? I believe there is also a check valve on the filter housing body that attaches to the block? I'm a little confused because in the past I have had issues with the pressure relief valves (BMW 2002 & Mustang GT). In both of those cases it literally blew the filter off the seal and pumped oil everywhere so it would seem to create the opposite problem I'm having.
Any insight would be appreciated.
 
Is the gauge showing any pressure? You wont necessarily see oil in the line unless you bleed it
 
fklskv said:
Is the gauge showing any pressure? You wont necessarily see oil in the line unless you bleed it
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When I bumped it with the starter I saw no movement of the gauge. I also put a vaccum pump on the oil sender hole but couldn't pull any oil up.
 
How long did it sit? Was it broken in before it sat?

I run an HV pump in my 340. I get 75 psi cold at start up, at hot idle I get about 55 and that’s with 15-40w oil, if I run 20-50w it’s 60psi at hot idle. I don’t get any oil out of my exhaust at all. I was pulling a little oil through my PCV system before I baffled my valve covers and played around with a couple of PCV valves, but that was on the PCV side.

What I’m getting at is, you may have had a ring sealing issue, not an HV pump problem. Obviously the lack of oil pressure now is a separate issue.
 
Is the drill turning the pump for sure when its in the car? Also, You have to have the distributor in to activate the pump

Thats not your oiling problem anyways. I would put the high output pump back in.
 
Your hv oil pump didn't cause it to smoke. Poor ring seal will though.
 
Your car using oil has nothing, zero, zilch to do with the oil pump. Changing the oil pump was a total waste of time and money and now you have opened a new can of worms.
 
72bluNblu said:
How long did it sit? Was it broken in before it sat?

I run an HV pump in my 340. I get 75 psi cold at start up, at hot idle I get about 55 and that’s with 15-40w oil, if I run 20-50w it’s 60psi at hot idle. I don’t get any oil out of my exhaust at all. I was pulling a little oil through my PCV system before I baffled my valve covers and played around with a couple of PCV valves, but that was on the PCV side.

What I’m getting at is, you may have had a ring sealing issue, not an HV pump problem. Obviously the lack of oil pressure now is a separate issue.
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That engine ran fine it was a fresh short block. I bought the car in '05, put a few hundred miles on it before I began work on it. I put the 502 swirl port heads and an Isky can and an edelbrock with a 640 AFB on it. headers and dual exhaust. The work was done over a period of several years while not driving it. But now it's been registered and driven occasionally for the past 2 years. The day I decided to change the oil pump was the first day I ever saw it smoke. That's the rub. This is such a piece of cake job... not really a big deal. I'm tearing it down again while we speak and will continue to look for clues.
 
RustyRatRod said:
Your car using oil has nothing, zero, zilch to do with the oil pump. Changing the oil pump was a total waste of time and money and now you have opened a new can of worms.
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I understand what you are saying but I'm only out $40 and my time. I'd be happy to see the car run and smoke with the new pump like it did with the old pump. That would at least be better than not running at all. If I need a new bottom end so be it...
 
justinp61 said:
Your hv oil pump didn't cause it to smoke. Poor ring seal will though.
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I don't think it caused the smoke directly, I think it pushed oil past the valve seals maybe or somewhere else, got oil into the exhaust and as the exhaust heats up it smokes off the oil. Thats my thought, although I may be wrong.
 
Is it possible the valve stem seals got abit hard from sitting and that's the source of oil smoke? As far as the pump not priming, I just had a similar issue-I was trying to prime the engine with a drill and it would not prime . This went on for several attempts until my "helper" went home and I realised with the distractions that the priming rod which I SWORE was down all the way in,was not. The new bronze bushing was just tight and upon pushing a bit more the rod went another inch or so and "wa la!" -primer action. Just a thought..........
 
PCV issue-------Wont fix the oil pump issue. I built a one piece priming shaft for priming my motor, I was afraid the tip would snap off in the drive gear.
I bet you aren't turning the new oil pump. My stock pump runs 65# hot running and 45# hot idle. That's with full synthetic.
Wagner adjustable PCV and I get 16.9 MPG running 13.9 to 14.5 on my wideband. Just got back from a 90 mile run.
 
OL DODGE said:
Is it possible the valve stem seals got abit hard from sitting and that's the source of oil smoke? As far as the pump not priming, I just had a similar issue-I was trying to prime the engine with a drill and it would not prime . This went on for several attempts until my "helper" went home and I realised with the distractions that the priming rod which I SWORE was down all the way in,was not. The new bronze bushing was just tight and upon pushing a bit more the rod went another inch or so and "wa la!" -primer action. Just a thought..........
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That's a possibility, I believed I was in all the way because the rod was actually a ***** to get out, but i could be wrong! Gonna tap it down gently with hammer handle this time to be sure.
 
4spdragtop said:
Excessive internal pressure combined with poor sealing rings maybe?
Happy Columbus Day Rob!
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Rings aside, I have read that the high output pumps can create some sort of pressure wave inside the block and that the HO pumps are usually used with a high capacity oil pan, which I don't have. Otherwise the car just runs great, nothing like a tired dog with worn out rings.
 
4spdragtop said:
Excessive internal pressure combined with poor sealing rings maybe?
Happy Columbus Day Rob!
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I don't know.....I ain't sure the oil pressure has anything to do with it. The rings aren't pressurized. Neither are the guides, so I don't think the oil pressure has a bearing on it at all.

Happy Columbus Day to you too!
 
Could have good compression, and bad oil rings, so it runs good but smokes. Could also have intake and head mismatch, sucking oil from the valley.
 
amusingarts said:
Rings aside, I have read that the high output pumps can create some sort of pressure wave inside the block and that the HO pumps are usually used with a high capacity oil pan, which I don't have. Otherwise the car just runs great, nothing like a tired dog with worn out rings.
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This ^^^^^^^ is totally false. The only thing a high volume pump does is make more volume earlier in pump speed...RPM. It can't suck your pan dry. It can't create a pressure wave. And you don't need a bigger pan with one.

Total oil volume used by any engine is dependent on a few things. The size of the pump. The RPM you measure use at. Main bearing clearance. Rod bearing clearance. Leaks at the lifter bores. Cam bearing clearance. And leaks at the rocker arm.

Other than that...the volume of oil an engine uses isn't dependent on anything else.

You didn't have a pump issue. You either have a ring seal issue or a valve guide/seal issue.
 
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amusingarts said:
Rings aside, I have read that the high output pumps can create some sort of pressure wave inside the block and that the HO pumps are usually used with a high capacity oil pan, which I don't have. Otherwise the car just runs great, nothing like a tired dog with worn out rings.
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Hogwash......no offense meant to you. Just whomever wrote what you read.
 
Sterling said:
Could have good compression, and bad oil rings, so it runs good but smokes. Could also have intake and head mismatch, sucking oil from the valley.
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I'm aware thst there is a difference in the angle of the original heads and the 502 heads. Took that into consideration with the build, but there could be leakage somewhere.
 
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