Pistons

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Newbomb Turk said:
I’ll tell you Dan, the biggest issue I have with any KB piston is the garbage 5/64 ring pack.

I can’t think of a single scenario where those thick tractor rings would be better and I can’t think of one.

In my world any piston made today would have no thicker ring than .043 and it could be made even more simple if they just used a 1 mm ring.

Other than it’s about all you can get IMO a 1/16 ring pack is obsolete as well.

Thick rings eat power, cause more heat and don’t seal worth a crap.
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I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree with the first sentence and with the last sentence.
Here's my experience, with that so-called, "garbage 5/64 ring-pack"
As to power;
My 367 has gone 93 in Eighth, at 3457 pounds, at 900 ft elevation, which the Wallace estimates is 430 hp.
As to heat:
and she runs the exact same temperature, no matter how many runs I make back-to back.
as to Not sealing
On the day I put them in, I couldn't measure any leakdown at all. In one particular combo, the pressure went to 195psi.
I've got over 100,000 miles on those rings now.
Bonus
I got up to 32 mpg on a certain day trip on those rings.

They may be garbage, IDK.
But I'd buy them again, without even thinking about it.
 
Dan the man said:
I believe that you have a lot of experience with engine building, what size rings do you like
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more than most, less than a lot of others. it's not about what i like. it's about what is correct for the application, what fits the budget, the overall build plan and availability.

i like light, forged pistons with modern, thin ring packs. but that might not be what's on the menu, so some cast iron tractor rings will have to suffice. and they'll be fine for what ever it is that's being built.
 
The piston manufacturer will give a piston skirt clearance specification with a height up the skirt to measure the diameter. The machinist will hone for proper fit of the pistons.
When that is completed you or whomever is assembling your engine will gently slide a ring into a cylinder and square it to 90° to the bore. Then the end gap is measured and possibly filed ffor more end clearance depending on the intended application. The ring end gap specification is supplied by the ring manufacturer.
 
AJ/FormS said:
I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree with the first sentence and with the last sentence.
Here's my experience, with that so-called, "garbage 5/64 ring-pack"
As to power;
My 367 has gone 93 in Eighth, at 3457 pounds, at 900 ft elevation, which the Wallace estimates is 430 hp.
As to heat:
and she runs the exact same temperature, no matter how many runs I make back-to back.
as to Not sealing
On the day I put them in, I couldn't measure any leakdown at all. In one particular combo, the pressure went to 195psi.
I've got over 100,000 miles on those rings now.
Bonus
I got up to 32 mpg on a certain day trip on those rings.

They may be garbage, IDK.
But I'd buy them again, without even thinking about it.
Click to expand...
Well, IMHO you both have points. The 5/64" ring sets have been in use for decades now and are well proven. If they work for you and you are happy with using them, have at it and carry on.
Modern technology and materials has enabled the ring widths to be reduced for lower friction in the engine which equates to more power and fuel economy. The General went to 1.5mm rings on their LS engines which is very close to 1/16" ring width. NASCAR is down to 0.5mm compression rings. That is about 0.020" ring width. That is almost like using oil ring rails as compression rings. Those teams are chasing every 1/2HP everywhere they can find it.
For a new build looking to modern rings could be of benefit. Some aftermarket LS off the shelf pistons are now machined for 1.2mm, 1.2mm and 3mm ring sets. If you find a piston with the chemistry, piston top design and compression height you desire, use it and the rings it is machined for. 1/16" or 1.5mm are likely the same cost as 5/64". Also consider ring weight as a factor when racing. As you get progressively narrower rings the price seems to get progressively higher as you get narrower than 1/16".
For my Ford 289 I found pistons that take 1.2mm, 1.2mm, 3.0mm rings. Total Seal makes a zero gap top set that will work. The issue is today's cost delivered to Canada for pistons and rings is about $1700 CDN. But then I do not foresee ever having to air out this engine again.
 
junkyardhero said:
more than most, less than a lot of others. it's not about what i like. it's about what is correct for the application, what fits the budget, the overall build plan and availability.

i like light, forged pistons with modern, thin ring packs. but that might not be what's on the menu, so some cast iron tractor rings will have to suffice. and they'll be fine for what ever it is that's being built.
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Finding the appropriate pistons and rings for the intended use and budget is where the bannana peel hits the sidewalk. Sometimes availability trips us up and usually the budget whacks us upside the head.
 
Dale Davies said:
Well, IMHO you both have points. The 5/64" ring sets have been in use for decades now and are well proven. If they work for you and you are happy with using them, have at it and carry on.
Modern technology and materials has enabled the ring widths to be reduced for lower friction in the engine which equates to more power and fuel economy. The General went to 1.5mm rings on their LS engines which is very close to 1/16" ring width. NASCAR is down to 0.5mm compression rings. That is about 0.020" ring width. That is almost like using oil ring rails as compression rings. Those teams are chasing every 1/2HP everywhere they can find it.
For a new build looking to modern rings could be of benefit. Some aftermarket LS off the shelf pistons are now machined for 1.2mm, 1.2mm and 3mm ring sets. If you find a piston with the chemistry, piston top design and compression height you desire, use it and the rings it is machined for. 1/16" or 1.5mm are likely the same cost as 5/64". Also consider ring weight as a factor when racing. As you get progressively narrower rings the price seems to get progressively higher as you get narrower than 1/16".
For my Ford 289 I found pistons that take 1.2mm, 1.2mm, 3.0mm rings. Total Seal makes a zero gap top set that will work. The issue is today's cost delivered to Canada for pistons and rings is about $1700 CDN. But then I do not foresee ever having to air out this engine again.
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Holy crap!! 1700 CDN? Check with Summit. They sell TS rings under the Summit brand and I can’t say for sure but I’d be surprised if you can’t find that ring for half of that money.

The biggest reason 5/64 rings are still used is the “market” thinks a thick ring seals better (it doesn’t regardless of who thinks they do) and the piston manufacturers aren’t willing to change up the tooling.

They shouldn’t make pistons that take those big assed, clunky rings.
 
Newbomb Turk said:
I’ll tell you Dan, the biggest issue I have with any KB piston is the garbage 5/64 ring pack.

I can’t think of a single scenario where those thick tractor rings would be better and I can’t think of one.

In my world any piston made today would have no thicker ring than .043 and it could be made even more simple if they just used a 1 mm ring.

Other than it’s about all you can get IMO a 1/16 ring pack is obsolete as well.

Thick rings eat power, cause more heat and don’t seal worth a crap.
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Yes 1/16" are falling into the obsolete bin.
1.2mm, 0.043", 1mm are fairly common. Lake Speed was talking about 0.9mm rings. All depends on piston availabilty and budget. I expect Dan will be on a fairly tight budget. His asking questions here is good as he can bounce ideas around to find out what he should be looking to or for and what to avoid. Young people need help to avoid those manure piles some of us have stepped or fallen into.
 
Dale Davies said:
I expect Dan will be on a fairly tight budget. His asking questions here is good as he can bounce ideas around to find out what he should be looking to or for and what to avoid. Y
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I highly doubt that Dan will put any of this information to any practical use.
 
Newbomb Turk said:
Holy crap!! 1700 CDN? Check with Summit. They sell TS rings under the Summit brand and I can’t say for sure but I’d be surprised if you can’t find that ring for half of that money.

The biggest reason 5/64 rings are still used is the “market” thinks a thick ring seals better (it doesn’t regardless of who thinks they do) and the piston manufacturers aren’t willing to change up the tooling.

They shouldn’t make pistons that take those big assed, clunky rings.
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That is the cost of the pistons and rings through Summit. Remember we get hosed for the $ exchange at 1.4 these days and our prime peckerhead spashing money around to appear as a world savior is only getting us deeper in debt which eventually sink our $ more. I already have most of the stuff for the heads, valves, screwin 7/16" rocker arm studs, roller rockers, guide plates and hardened push rods. That is up in the $1200 range alone, and then the guides and machine work will be up there also. So rebuilding my 289 will be close to $5000 CDN by the time I am done. Yup, costs us a fortune. Housing is pretty expensive with having to dig a basement and pour concrete walls to 6 feet in the ground to get below where the frost gets over winter.
 
The other thing not mentioned in this thread is that some high performance and almost all race engines at a simi pro and pro level are having pistons custom made to their design specs. Which is about 500 give or take per piston. Don’t forget rods, cams, and everything else. So comparing a racing engine and a basic ***** of the shelf parts street engine is apples and oranges. A street engine is made to last say 100,000 miles. Depending on the end use of a race engines about 15-20 hours. Just watching Kenny Wallace talk about his dirt car, it’s 30 grand for a rebuild. Way way outside of your pocket book Dan the (No Car) Man…
 
Dale Davies said:
I expect Dan will be on a fairly tight budget. His asking questions here is good as he can bounce ideas around to find out what he should be looking to or for and what to avoid. Young people need help to avoid those manure piles some of us have stepped or fallen into.
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dan's so cheap he could squeeze a nickle and get six pennies.

also, dan was considered "young people" probably 30+ years ago, so the shine is well off that apple.
 
Scody21 said:
The other thing not mentioned in this thread is that some high performance and almost all race engines at a simi pro and pro level are having pistons custom made to their design specs. Which is about 500 give or take per piston. Don’t forget rods, cams, and everything else. So comparing a racing engine and a basic ***** of the shelf parts street engine is apples and oranges. A street engine is made to last say 100,000 miles. Depending on the end use of a race engines about 15-20 hours. Just watching Kenny Wallace talk about his dirt car, it’s 30 grand for a rebuild. Way way outside of your pocket book Dan the (No Car) Man…
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An F1 piston, one stinking piston costs $50,000. I do not own a vehicle worth that much, and do not envision ever spending that on a vehicle if I could afford it.
 
GTFO means: Kind sir, might you please depart the premises?







Pweeeeeeeeeeeeesh











Not to beat a dead horse, but that can also be solved with a google search my dude.
 
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273 said:
I highly doubt that Dan will put any of this information to any practical use.
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Buy a car. Prices never came down. Good cars bring good money! Junk cars prettied up are still there for less and then total junk. Good Cars are still sold at above what they were worth years ago.
 
remytherat said:
GTFO means: Kind sir, might you please depart the premises?







Pweeeeeeeeeeeeesh











Not to beat a dead horse, but that can also be solved with a google search my dude.
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Believe it or not I did a Google search on it before junkyardhero replied.
 
340six said:
Buy a car. Prices never came down. Good cars bring good money! Junk cars prettied up are still there for less and then total junk. Good Cars are still sold at above what they were worth years ago.
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I was surprised too, the 1976 dart sport was first listed at $29,000 and now it's $25,000. Now, just going by the photos it's a great looking car. But time will tell
 
Dan the man said:
I was surprised too, the 1976 dart sport was first listed at $29,000 and now it's $25,000. Now, just going by the photos it's a great looking car. But time will tell
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You will never know! You are a bench racer, dreamer who is just dreaming, collecting pictures, talking crap. And dreaming up excuses after excuses of why you did not buy. Carry on. Your screen name should be changed to Ambein...........
 
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340six said:
You will never know! You are a bench racer, dreamer who is just dreaming, collecting pictures, talking crap. And dreaming up excuses after excuses of why you did not buy. Carry on. Your screen name should be changed to Ambein...........
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By me waiting a few days, I'm saving 4 grand. I'm probably a better buyer than you are because I don't just jump on the first thing I see. For all I know you may be talking crap too as you've never posted a picture of your car. 340six, yeah right
 
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