PRP Velocity Lessons

-

Earlie A

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2023
Messages
215
Reaction score
312
Location
TN Hills
You have to be part nerd to enjoy this stuff, so if you ain't nerdy you should probably close this post. Most of the lessons I learned here were 'duh' moments, but 'duh' moments with data seem to make sense to me.

Anyway, this all started with wondering about the calibration of my pitot tube. Can I trust the velocity numbers that I am seeing? To verify, I took velocity measurements through a known area - the push rod pinch. Since the flow bench gives the cfm at the same time as velocity, the calculation (and verification) should be easy. Avg velocity(in feet per second) x area(in square feet) x 60(seconds per minute) = flow(in cfm).

The test results can be seen in the pictures below. I measured velocity at seven different valve lift points, with nine velocity measurements taken at each lift. These velocities appear in the shaded boxes across the top of the page. The velocities are in specific zones or regions of the port. The first row of hand written numbers is the lift points. The second row of numbers is the average velocity at each lift, which is just the sum of all 9 numbers in the box divided by nine. The third row is the cfm flow rate given by the flow bench at each lift point. The fourth row is the cfm flow rate calculated from the equation listed above. Ideally, these two cfm numbers should match exactly. They do not, but why? Also, why are the velocity numbers all over the place?

Here's my learnings or 'duh' moments:

1. Chad Speier once said that the only velocity you need to measure is in the center of the port. He was somewhat joking, but compare the number in the center of each box to the calculated average velocity beneath it. Pretty close. That's 'duh' number one and it's perfectly logical.

2. Why are velocities much higher in one corner (bottom right) and much lower in the upper left? Velocities were taken at the push rod pinch, represented by section B-B in red in the drawing. The port inlet is section A-A. When the sections are superimposed, it can be seen that the floor of the port is rising, the right wall of the port is narrowing, and the roof is rising slightly. This means the area in the lower right is getting increasingly smaller (converging) and the area in the upper left is getting slightly larger. In the lower right, there is more air fighting for the same space, so it has to speed up. Thus the high velocity. Velocities are highest along the converging walls and lowest along the diverging wall. Another 'duh' moment for me. These things are really pretty simple, but for some reason not intuitive. These principles can also apply deeper into the port where things are more complicated and more important.

3. This one is a little more speculative and not really a 'duh'. Why do the cfm numbers not match exactly? In reality, there's pretty good correlation, especially at lower lifts/lower flows. At 100 and 200 lift, the numbers are within 1-2%. As lift increases and flow increases, the cfm calculated from the pitot velocity is 4-6% higher than the flow bench cfm, and the error increases as flow increases. That's still pretty good correlation, but here's what could be happening - and I would love to be corrected if wrong. I've read that flow in a port is not laminar, it is transitional or turbulent. So, the boundary layer (layer of no flow or low flow) along the walls increases in thickness as flow increases. This boundary layer growth cuts down the effective flow area. To get the same cfm through a smaller area, the velocity must increase. The equation above uses the same area for all calculations. At high flows, the area used in the calculations might be too high, making the calculated cfm number too high. Interesting to think about, at least to me. All of these lessons are data points in the ultimate goal of trying to understand converging/diverging and flow separation/turbulence that occur at various locations in the ports.

There could be all kinds of errors in this test. Flow bench could be off a little. Pitot tube could be off a little. My area measurements could be off a little. But my initial goal was to check the relative accuracy of my pitot tube. I think I learned a few other things along the way.

One last point I would like to make. I often hear the phrase "The flow bench will lie to you". Total hogwash. The flow bench gives pressures and velocities (which are based on pressures). That's it. It does not predict horsepower or ET's. The interpretation or use of the data may be wrong and lead to the 'lies', but a properly calibrated flow bench does not lie. It only gives raw data about dry air flow.

Sorry to get so long and rambling.

IMG_2355.jpg


IMG_2354.jpg


IMG_2356.jpg
 
Last edited:
Not a head porter, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night but my understanding of the "Your flow bench is lying to you" refers to a couple of things.

1. Engines don't run at 28" so it's not really representative of what's going on in the engine.
2. Engines don't run "dry", see #1
3. Max flow doesn't mean Max power.

I'm sure there are more reasons, but again, I'm no expert. I sit in the corner and watch them and learn.
 
Not a head porter, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night but my understanding of the "Your flow bench is lying to you" refers to a couple of things.

1. Engines don't run at 28" so it's not really representative of what's going on in the engine.
2. Engines don't run "dry", see #1
3. Max flow doesn't mean Max power.

I'm sure there are more reasons, but again, I'm no expert. I sit in the corner and watch them and learn.
I think all of your statements are correct. If you test at 28", the flow bench is reporting what is going on with dry air at that pressure. Instead of "your flow bench is lying to you", we should say "your assumptions about your flow bench data may be incorrect". If the bench is calibrated, the data is correct.
 
I think all of your statements are correct. If you test at 28", the flow bench is reporting what is going on with dry air at that pressure. Instead of "your flow bench is lying to you", we should say "your assumptions about your flow bench data may be incorrect". If the bench is calibrated, the data is correct.

People take flow numbers as gospel often times. I know I used to. The truth is it's a tool used to try to understand what is happening with the flow going through some passage, in our case, cyl heads. The problem with that is it's not "really" what's going in inside the head in it's intended environment. So, yeah, it's lying to you. Also, calibration is bench specific so your bench "calibrated" to 28" will differ from what @pittsburghracer might see.

This is NOT an attempt to argue, it's how I learn so feel free to ignore if you like :)

At the end of the day, I'm sure we CAN agree it's a damn useful tool and in the right hands (not mine) it can tell volumes of what's going on.

Thanks for your post, I rather enjoy the nerd side of things.
 
I'm going to regret this post, I'm sure. I'm not one to argue either, so don't take it that way. I want technical information to be correct and accurate. That's why I put that comment out.

Here's my point.

Step 1: Measure dry flow on flow bench and get data
Step 2: Make assumptions and make calculations from the data

The problems all come in because of Step 2, not Step 1. The flow bench is not lying. The assumptions and calculations are not a perfect model.

Boy am I ever going to regret this one!
 
I'm going to regret this post, I'm sure. I'm not one to argue either, so don't take it that way. I want technical information to be correct and accurate. That's why I put that comment out.

Here's my point.

Step 1: Measure dry flow on flow bench and get data
Step 2: Make assumptions and make calculations from the data

The problems all come in because of Step 2, not Step 1. The flow bench is not lying. The assumptions and calculations are not a perfect model.

Boy am I ever going to regret this one!

I hope the regret doesn't come from me. I've said my part and will go back to sitting down an learning.
 
I'm going to regret this post, I'm sure. I'm not one to argue either, so don't take it that way. I want technical information to be correct and accurate. That's why I put that comment out.

Here's my point.

Step 1: Measure dry flow on flow bench and get data
Step 2: Make assumptions and make calculations from the data

The problems all come in because of Step 2, not Step 1. The flow bench is not lying. The assumptions and calculations are not a perfect model.

Boy am I ever going to regret this one!

Have you learned you can lose flow and make more power?

It happens. A lot.
 
Have you learned you can lose flow and make more power?

It happens. A lot.
I agree. And you make my point perfectly. The flow bench told you the flow went down. It was correct.

The flow bench said nothing about power going up or down. That was the assumptions and or calculations.
 
I agree. And you make my point perfectly. The flow bench told you the flow went down. It was correct.

The flow bench said nothing about power going up or down. That was the assumptions and or calculations.


Flow goes down, power goes up. Seen it many times. That doesn’t make the bench correct.

It says the flowbench, just like a dyno will lie to you IF you let it. They are both tools and they both have limitations.
 
Flow goes down, power goes up. Seen it many times. That doesn’t make the bench correct.

It says the flowbench, just like a dyno will lie to you IF you let it. They are both tools and they both have limitations.
See post 5 above. Which of Step 1 or Step 2 are you claiming is incorrect? If Step 1, please tell me which of the flow bench outputs that I should not believe (you get to choose from cfm, pressure or velocity cause that's all there is). If Step 2, then we are in agreement and we are saying the same thing in different ways.
 
See post 5 above. Which of Step 1 or Step 2 are you claiming is incorrect? If Step 1, please tell me which of the flow bench outputs that I should not believe (you get to choose from cfm, pressure or velocity cause that's all there is). If Step 2, then we are in agreement and we are saying the same thing in different ways.


I’ll say this, then I’m done.

The general thinking is more flow, more power. I’m saying that’s not true. Because shape (and the velocity gradients that change with shape) is what matters. A certain shape may look great on the flow bench but be a power loser. And the corollary is true. You can get less flow on the flow bench and make more power.

I thought I explained that testing at one pressure is a bad policy. That’s why so many people just write off steeper than 45 degree seats. Bad testing makes the 50 look bad, but it makes more power. Every time I’ve ever done it. And in some cases I used a 55 degree seat.

Reverse flow testing is really important.

Sound is just about as critical as anything else. A dirty, noisy port can flow more than a quiet port but if you didn’t ever look at a flow number and went in and fixed the noise it would make more power. Every time.

Would it gain or lose on a flow bench? It’s hard to say. That’s why I use the 50 degree seat as an example.

BTW, I see guys on line trying to do 50 degree seats with a stone. I won’t say it’s impossible, but it’s close to it.

And one last thing. The top cut is crucial to a good port. The angle and how it blends into the chamber makes a big difference. You’ve heard the old wives tale not to sink the valve? Like many other things, it got convoluted by the masses. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen heads from porters who should know better that didn’t have any top cut.

I’m not suggesting to sink a valve. I’m saying you need to get the most top cut you can. Of course, if you are fighting a reversion issue you may want to sink a valve to clean that up, but it’s a band aide at best.
 
I’ll say this, then I’m done.

The general thinking is more flow, more power. I’m saying that’s not true. Because shape (and the velocity gradients that change with shape) is what matters. A certain shape may look great on the flow bench but be a power loser. And the corollary is true. You can get less flow on the flow bench and make more power.

I thought I explained that testing at one pressure is a bad policy. That’s why so many people just write off steeper than 45 degree seats. Bad testing makes the 50 look bad, but it makes more power. Every time I’ve ever done it. And in some cases I used a 55 degree seat.

Reverse flow testing is really important.

Sound is just about as critical as anything else. A dirty, noisy port can flow more than a quiet port but if you didn’t ever look at a flow number and went in and fixed the noise it would make more power. Every time.

Would it gain or lose on a flow bench? It’s hard to say. That’s why I use the 50 degree seat as an example.

BTW, I see guys on line trying to do 50 degree seats with a stone. I won’t say it’s impossible, but it’s close to it.

And one last thing. The top cut is crucial to a good port. The angle and how it blends into the chamber makes a big difference. You’ve heard the old wives tale not to sink the valve? Like many other things, it got convoluted by the masses. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen heads from porters who should know better that didn’t have any top cut.

I’m not suggesting to sink a valve. I’m saying you need to get the most top cut you can. Of course, if you are fighting a reversion issue you may want to sink a valve to clean that up, but it’s a band aide at best.
I do not disagree with any of that. And by the way, the head that is shown in this test has 50 degree seats and the valves have been sunk 0.090" to create a good top cut. Many times I think disagreements come down to the difficulty of communicating through the written word. We ain't that far apart.
 
Warren Johnson said too bad you can’t put tires on the flow bench and run it down the dragstrip.
 
Many times I think disagreements come down to the difficulty of communicating through the written word. We ain't that far apart.
Seems like your stuck on the phrase "flowbench is lying to you" what I get from what the others are saying, that how a head operates on a flowbench is miles different then on a engine, so it only give hints of what's going on, it's not directly compatible but obviously it partly is or otherwise we wouldn't use them at all.
 
Seems like your stuck on the phrase "flowbench is lying to you" what I get from what the others are saying, that how a head operates on a flowbench is miles different then on a engine, so it only give hints of what's going on, it's not directly compatible but obviously it partly is or otherwise we wouldn't use them at all.
You are probably right. I need to seek help.
 
I was thinking about this whole controversy a little more and it reminded me of a moment with my father, who would be 89 if he were still with us. We were working on a project together and needed to do some math. I did the math by hand and checked it with a calculator. He took the calculator results and checked them by hand. A lot of it is a matter of perspective, experiences and what you trust.
 
few years ago,i went to a flow seminar put on by superflow, harold bettes , vp of super flow conducted the 8 hour class. it was very informative class. he stated, that engine doesn't pull 28 " of vac, if it does, you are loosing power,, my bench is calibrated at 25 :, he also stated, that 20 : would be more accurate. carbs are tested at 20". his last comment was, port shape and port velocity are everything, don't get hung up on flow numbers, port velocity is what fills the cylinders, creates higher cylinder pressures, = more torque, = more power, just food for thought.
 
his last comment was, port shape and port velocity are everything, don't get hung up on flow numbers, port velocity is what fills the cylinders, creates higher cylinder pressures, = more torque, = more power, just food for thought.
And there it is.
 
few years ago,i went to a flow seminar put on by superflow, harold bettes , vp of super flow conducted the 8 hour class. it was very informative class. he stated, that engine doesn't pull 28 " of vac, if it does, you are loosing power,, my bench is calibrated at 25 :, he also stated, that 20 : would be more accurate. carbs are tested at 20". his last comment was, port shape and port velocity are everything, don't get hung up on flow numbers, port velocity is what fills the cylinders, creates higher cylinder pressures, = more torque, = more power, just food for thought.
Did he give a velocity range? From what I can find out in the 250-300 fps average.
 
Totally agree that velocity is the most important, but here’s the problem with the ‘chase velocity, not cfm’ arguement. There are two primary ways to come up with average velocity through the entire port. The difficult way is with the pitot tube. This requires lots of accurate velocity measurements and lots of accurate area measurements. Not easy to do.

The easy way is to take the port volume (measured with a liquid) and divide it by the port centerline length. This gives the average port cross sectional area. Then you take the cfm reading and divide it by the average CSA. This gives you velocity.

Since velocity is calculated from cfm, the way that you chase velocity is by monitoring cfm.
 
-
Back
Top