Question for the mechanics out there; FSMs

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Lefty71

Lefty71

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This is not really Mopar specific, but i'm really wondering about the big three domestic automakers. As hobbyists, we always recommend everyone own the factory workshop manuals for their given model.
Fast forward to today....do you guys still find large multivolume paper manuals and wiring diagrams available in official form from the manufacturer? When I google for information on the web I found every level of goofy answer, but no easily located factory information. It triggered me to ask here, as i was recently looking for stuff on a late model Ford....was always simple in the past. Ford itself directed me to Helminc.com??, which required a login, and motorcraft was similar. Just wondered what your experiences are, Mopar inclusive. TIA, Lefty71
 
Looked everywhere trying to find manual for a 2012 caravan. Needed a wiring schematic. Couldn't find anything. Best I can tell, anything these days is only online as a subscription service, so no printed manuals. Friend was able to find info for his Ford at ALLDATA.COM, but again, subscription. I understand having to pay for stuff, but I'd like to see what I get before paying for it. I think my local library has access to ALLDATA, but haven't gone down to look yet.
 
I bought the FSM for my 05 RAM and it cost me $400. I believe it was 10 full sized books. I would never buy a FSM again. You tube can tell you everything you need to know. I was doing rear brakes on a 2013 Honda Accord. I couldn't push the piston in on the caliper. Youtube told me piston screws in, so I now go there for help.
 
old stuff get the book post 2000 on line
dealer junked the books around 2005
a use alldata ,better then mitchel for euros
but still u-tube sometimes when the info isn't there or clear
problem with utube is if its an odd problem good luck ,or if you trust the poster
then some stuff you need factory subscrition ...guilded fault finding ...takes the code tells you what to check and what you should see
 
:rolleyes:
Or walk up to the parts counter at a dealer & ask, if You don't want to pay, then You scrounge around. If You only plan on normal service, probably not worth it these days, & screw-in actuated rear(& frt. Subey) calipers have been around for 40+ years.....
 
I like having the FSM's if I can. The internet is full of incorrect information and speculation, and unless you have an official source it makes confirming the facts pretty difficult.

For all my older cars I have an actual hardbound FSM, and if I can I also have a PDF version. The PDF version is obviously MUCH easier to search if I'm not 100% sure where I'll find what I want. If I know where to find what I want the hardbound is easier.

For newer stuff they don't even release an actual paper book, seems like that stopped around 10 years ago deepening on the make/model. For awhile you could buy a CD with the FSM on it, but even some of those were "checking in" with the manufacturers servers to confirm a serial number. Pretty much everyone has gone to a stupid *** subscription service, you have to pay every month to have access to the FSM materials. It's dumb as hell. I'd love to have a PDF copy of the FSM for my 2024 Ram, but, it's only by subscription. There are ways to save the files if you get the subscription, although it's not a "click to download" situation as they're protected. And yeah the new FSM's are thousands of pages so even if you paid for a subscription you'd have set up a download schedule for yourself and just get the things you'd be likely to work on yourself. Otherwise you'd be paying for months just to have enough time to grab the whole thing.

Somebody ought to force the manufacturers to make this stuff available. Doesn't have to be free or anything, I'd pay to have it, but you should be able to buy permanent access to the FSM for a vehicle you own.
 
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72bluNblu said:
I like having the FSM's if I can. The internet is full of incorrect information and speculation, and unless you have an official source it makes confirming the facts pretty difficult.

For all my older cars I have an actual hardbound FSM, and if I can I also have a PDF version. The PDF version is obviously MUCH easier to search if I'm not 100% sure where I'll find what I want. If I know where to find what I want the hardbound is easier.

For newer stuff they don't even release an actual paper book, seems like that stopped around 10 years ago deepening on the make/model. For awhile you could buy a CD with the FSM on it, but even some of those were "checking in" with the manufacturers servers to confirm a serial number. Pretty much everyone has gone to a stupid *** subscription service, you have to pay every month to have access to the FSM materials. It's dumb as hell. I'd love to have a PDF copy of the FSM for my 2024 Ram, but, it's only by subscription. There are ways to save the files if you get the subscription, although it's not a "click to download" situation as they're protected. And yeah the new FSM's are thousands of pages so even if you paid for a subscription you'd have set up a download schedule for yourself and just get the things you'd be likely to work on yourself. Otherwise you'd be paying for months just to have enough time to grab the whole thing.

Somebody ought to force the manufacturers to make this stuff available. Doesn't have to be free or anything, I'd pay for to have it, but you should be able to buy permanent access to the FSM for a vehicle you own.
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Makes me wonder if this is (was?) similar to the Right To Repair lawsuit that farmers brought against John Deere. I don't know where that ended-up, sad to say....
 
ProjectBazza said:
Makes me wonder if this is (was?) similar to the Right To Repair lawsuit that farmers brought against John Deere. I don't know where that ended-up, sad to say....
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Yeah there are definitely some "right to repair" laws, but at least as of right now they don't apply to any of the FSM's that I'm aware of. When I looked into it for my Ram it basically came down to getting a subscription to the Stellantis portal, and then doing an end-around on their software to save any files you wanted. The files are all listed individually, so, for example if you want to change the cabin air filter that's one file. And you can imagine if that's a file, well, there are thousands of individual files that make up the whole FSM.

That's what it would take though, there'd have to be some kind of right to repair legislation requiring the auto manufacturers to include the FSM with their vehicles. I mean really, you pay $50K-$100k for a vehicle and they should be giving you access to the FSM. It's digital, they already have it and store it on a server, it doesn't cost them a thing to let you download it. Instead it's how they control the repair market, if a mechanic wants to work on those vehicles they have to subscribe to the stupid portal to have access to the FSM.
 
72bluNblu said:
Yeah there are definitely some "right to repair" laws, but at least as of right now they don't apply to any of the FSM's that I'm aware of. When I looked into it for my Ram it basically came down to getting a subscription to the Stellantis portal, and then doing an end-around on their software to save any files you wanted. The files are all listed individually, so, for example if you want to change the cabin air filter that's one file. And you can imagine if that's a file, well, there are thousands of individual files that make up the whole FSM.

That's what it would take though, there'd have to be some kind of right to repair legislation requiring the auto manufacturers to include the FSM with their vehicles. I mean really, you pay $50K-$100k for a vehicle and they should be giving you access to the FSM. It's digital, they already have it and store it on a server, it doesn't cost them a thing to let you download it. Instead it's how they control the repair market, if a mechanic wants to work on those vehicles they have to subscribe to the stupid portal to have access to the FSM.
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As a wise man once said: Follow the money.
 
I wish they'd at least publish the torque specs. Most of the info on the internet now is because some tech somewhere decided to take the time to publish it. Those techs are getting harder to find....and who knows if it's right?
 
Tesla puts their complete FSM info online, and it's free for anyone to read.

For other brands, Alldata is typically your best bet; their content appears to be scanned or copied FSM text and illustrations.
 
I went to an auction a few years ago that was an old time Ford dealership that is still in business but they sold off a whole wall full of factory manuals, I believe they kept the newest 20 model years, the rest were sold by the pallet
 
Yeah the problem with YT is the info can be BS and you need to know what to believe and how to proceed. I have had a copy of Chilton US models 1964-71 for well over 30 years and it has served me well I also photo copied the wiring diagram for my dart out of a Mitchell manual at my automotive tech school in the early 90s so we do have to be resourceful when the opportunity arises...I also am a fan of used books. I actually lost my copy of "How to hot rod small block Mopar engines" I think its a Larry Sheppard book Ill find it used somewhere...
 
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Chilton's and motors aren't what they used to be back in the day. And for a higher level of "bad" or "not worth the price of the paper they are printed on" you have Haynes
 
MadScientistMat said:
Tesla puts their complete FSM info online, and it's free for anyone to read.

For other brands, Alldata is typically your best bet; their content appears to be scanned or copied FSM text and illustrations.
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Yeah, except You can't so much as change a tire w/o voiding the warranty if it's not done by the Tesla Dealer.......
 
Yes heard if not done as an authorized tesla repair they can lock out your car
 

A lot of the manuals are tayored to the DIY guy so more explaining then repair info
 
nutz said:
A lot of the manuals are tayored to the DIY guy so more explaining then repair info
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Right! Im looking for the "official" information supplied to the dealers mechanic, as written during the engineering/manufacturing process. I'll decide what to do from there.

All good info, thanks for the responses guys. :thumbsup:
 
How news does "Motor's" go?

I've found them to be a fairly close second to the FSM for most things I've done.

A bit better than Chilton and Clymer, and WAY better than Haynes.
 
I fast forwarded/ I have never had an issue finding FSM for 60s and 70s cars, on FeeBay, I shop for best price OR go to a model specific site on Facebook and do a wanted thread. Even cheaper! I like the old print books! But I am old!
 
For wiring diagrams go to your local library. I have always been able to find what I'm looking for. Our local library also has Mitchell on demand (or another similar service). You have to have a library card for that one. I have also had good luck finding FSMs on Ebay.
 
Jim Lusk said:
I have also had good luck finding FSMs on Ebay.
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Good info Jim. My question was about late model FSMs.....are you finding those on Ebay as well?? TIA, Lefty71


***EDIT*** I did find that ebay is a strong source for the wiring diagrams....STILL AVAILABLE IN PRINT, at least up to 2022 in the world of FORD anyway. Thx Jim
 
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