Questions before I buy.

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mo-cars

mo-cars

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Hi all , I'm new here , I've got a few questions about a G3 Hemi swap , I,ve had a good read of some of the threads here , i'm starting to get a good idea of whats involved in with the mechanical side of an A-Body swap , the whole engine management part i'm having trouble understanding .
First I'll start with the vehicle , It's an Australian 1977 Valiant . Similar under the sheet metal to a 76 Dart or Duster , exept RHD .
At this stage A stock 6.1 is within my budget , while providing the power level I'm after .
I'm looking at three engines at the moment .
1 : Mopar 6.1 with Plug & Play .
2 : Mopar 6.1 Replacement Engine
3 : 6.1 from a wrecked 08 300c SRT .
I will be using a 904 or 727 T/F , and will not be using P/S or A/C , usage will be drag racing with occasional street use .

I'm handy with a TIG welder and my fabricating skills are OK , but when it comes to computor controlled engines I,m lost .

So first I need to find out which system ( FAST , Hotwire , Hemitronx ) etc might be best for a beginer & and slow learner.

Secondly , which of the above mentioned engines will suit my needs .

Broad questions ! but I gotta start somewhere.
 
Kinda went through this myself ,
Ended up going with Hotwire, they sell you a brand new ecm programmed for your 6.1 ,uses a stock drive by wire pedal assy.
Cost was $ 950 Harness, New ECM $ 670 and, pedal assy, stock DBW $101.
They recommend the In Tune tuner which comes with better than stock tunes for $425.
This is as plug and play as it gets.
 
I would like to use a throttle cable , is that possable with Hotwire.
 
One of these days I'd like to see someone try the FAST EZ EFI multi port kit. I think it would be a pretty easy plug and play setup aside from swapping out the necessary sensors for GM pieces. It's similar to the TBI system, but instead uses the car's stock injectors. You'd have to get a cable operated throttle body, but it sounds like that would be your preference anyway. The system will self tune and learn, but it does only control fuel, so you'd have to get an MSD setup or something for the spark. The FAST system is only $900 for the multi port as opposed to $1200+ for the TBI since you're not getting their special throttle body setup, so it may be close to on par with a well spec'd Megasquirt system as far as price, but you're sacrificing the ability to hand tune stuff.
 
Mo-Cars,

All of your options are doable, and it simply depends upon how much you want to spend.


Absolute Cheapest, put a carb on it. Total cost 1500.00 Could be cheaper if you really know your way around a Holley and bought one used and tuned it yourself.

Next Cheapest would probably be the wrecked SRT motor and the Hot-Wire setup. This is pretty plug and play, they'll sell you a scanner / tuner handheld setup as well. Prices vary, but I'd buy all of this stuff direct from Hot-Wire, they are the ones making the harness, modifying the stock computers, and getting the whole thing to work. They have a lot of experience in the Jeep engine swap world, so they have been able to get late model Jeeps to accept late model Hemis, not an easy task. $1600.00 -$2000.00

Next Megasquirt a do-it-yourself, ECM for fuel injection. Learning curve more like a learning cliff, but cheap and highly customizable. Runs about the same price as the stock computer when all is said and done. Some can do it cheaper though. I'll have less in my setup, but I completely built my own box. I'll have to add up exactly what I've spent, to see exactly where I stand. You'd need to convert to cable operated throttle body.

Next either new motor replacement with FAST or used motor with FAST. The FAST setup is a $3200.00 Add that to the cost of your motor. The FAST setup is not plug and play, they do send you an initial tune that will get the motor running. And with their new XFI 2.0 setup there is an auto-tune feature that really helps with the tuning. For maximum performance expect to spend some money on dyno time. (This would be true for all of the setups) You'd need to convert to cable operated throttle body, their hemi kit comes with a 92 mm throttle body and an adapter.

Next would be the Chrysler performance motor with their cable operated throttle body. Body bolts direct to the motor, is 80 mm. The cost of the computer and related hardware is over 4K. Total cost of these kits with motor is just over 10K. Ouch. The kits allegedly use an AEM computer. Like the fast setup they come with a basic tune. Plan on spending some time on the dyno.

Brand new 6.1L hemis crate motors with electronics are right around 10K while replacement motors are around $6,500.00 to $7,500.00. For used 6.1 Hemi's expect to pay between $4,000.00 and $5,000.00. I personally consider any used low mileage 6.1L Hemi in good condition for under 4K to be exceptionally low priced. Since the new 392 Hemis are making their way into the market the prices of used 6.1L Hemis may decline.

ALL of these engines will meet your goals. If you have a reliable source for a used motor, or can hear it run and maybe perform a compression test. I'd buy a used motor.

Also, all above prices are in US Dollars. I know and you know the Australian dollar is now worth more than the US Dollar, unfortunately it doesn't make this swap any cheaper for you. :(

Best of luck, keep us posted.

Regards,

Joe Dokes
 
Thanks all appreciate the help. The company selling the new engines seem to have the best prices in AUS , $7250 for the replacement engine , $1120 for the MP plug & play engine , prices may vary if they need to order from US , our dollar has droped a little recently .
When talking with them I was strongly advised against the factory replacement engine for my intended use . As far as I know these engines come with engine wiring harnes and sensors , but no computor ,and just like the MP engine no assesorys on the front .
So if I diid go with the replacement engine I would also be up for the cost of Aftermarket Harnes , new or used computor that requires reprograming,
also an alternator and the nesscacary idlers to run witout P/S & A/C .

When I last spoke to the Auto dismantler about the used 6.1 from a 300 his price was $7200 w/out front assy's $7700 with , I didint disscus Computor and wiring , but I.m sure hell want more $ for that . So unless I can negotiate a better deal I think he's priced himself outa the market.

I've read somewhere on here that with the low mount alternator ie car system ,the alternator ends up close to or hitting the K member , I would much prfer the low mount alt for a clean look , is there a way of making it work .
 
Hey Mo-Cars. If the Aussie A-bodies are like the USA cars, the alternator will only need the top lip of the frame rail trimmed back a little to fit. There are pictures somewhere here in the Gen 3 forum that shows it. The AC pump is a pain in the butt with the car motors, when swapping one into an A-body. I'm in the process of making mine work right now. My car is a 70 Duster that I'm using a 73 spool mount k frame, with TTI motor mounts and headers. TTI told me up front that the AC pump probably would not fit with their mounts. I'm making a whole new mount for the drivers side (left side over here :D ) and not using TTI's mount. I've figured out how to make it work with the AC pump in the stock location on the motor, I'm just a little slow at gettin it done. You won't have that problem if you don't plan on using AC. Check out Bouchillon Performance for AC and PS delete pullies. Good luck.
 
Thanks for clearing that up for me JD, If it,s just the rail where the problem is , I should be OK . Our aussie A -bods had the motor off set to the right same as US cars , which doesn't make sence . since our steering is on the right . If I go through with this swap I'll move the engine closer to center. which might also help with brake booster clearance.
 
You can buy crate 6.1 for less than $7k one of my buddies is selling his 2010 6.1 short block for 1300.

You can also buy used truck ecu for $100 and use it plus the Hotwire harness and gas pedal. Ask me how I know. I just did this swap and I love it. If you like more info shoot me a pm.
 
Mo-Cars,

I don't know what the market for GenIII Hemi equipped in Australian, nor do I have any idea of the population density of where you live. (I know that most of the population is located along the coasts, and the interior of the country is pretty sparsely populated so if you live in the interior of the country your options for used motors might be limited.)

All that being said, take your time and shop around. You're local dismantler, who wants the same price for a used motor as a new motor is unreasonable. Get a feel for your local market. I spent a year looking for my motor, (mostly because it took me that long to convince my wife to let me move forward with the project) I'm really glad I did, because it is really easy to get excited jump on the first deal that comes along. I ended up getting a pretty good deal. Learning the market for these motors is your best way to get a good deal.

Regards,

Joe Dokes
 
Is it possible to get a carburated intake for the g3 hemi and still keep the DIS ignition just using an msd box or such? Ive never even looked into the hemi in any form so i dont know whats available at all
 
dustinmoran91 said:
Is it possible to get a carburated intake for the g3 hemi and still keep the DIS ignition just using an msd box or such? Ive never even looked into the hemi in any form so i dont know whats available at all
Click to expand...

Yep, that's exactly what I did when I first swapped my 5.7 in. The MSD box I believe is part number 8013, known as the MSD 6 Hemi or Hemi 6 depending on where it's listed. Super easy to use, just plug into the cam and crank sensors and give it power and ground and it's good to go. It will use the stock MAP sensor as well for "vacuum advance" so to speak, but you don't have to use it.

You have a few choices for carb intakes. Indy makes a modular one that lets you pick different top plates for what you want (single 4, double 4, 6 pack, etc), but it's a single plane with a pretty dang big plenum, so it might not be as good on the low end (ask me how I know...). Otherwise XV and Mopar both make a single 4 setup, but they are notorious for robbing tons of power and torque due to the really short runners and they are pretty pricey as well ($500 for XV I think and last I saw Mopar was still $800). Lastly, Edelbrock makes the cheapest one that's a dual 4 and I believe dual plane, so it might be more street friendly on the low end. Don't know much about it other than that HemiJoeJr on the boards here uses one and it looks pretty cool. Really gives it that old school look.
 
Map63vette, is correct about the Edelbrock dual plane dual quad, the only downside to this manifold is that it doesn't have bosses precast into the manifold for fuel injectors, so unless you can tig/mig weld aluminum you're pretty much limited to carbs.

Regards,

Joe Dokes
 
Thanks! Thats awsome. I would love to have a modern hemi without as big of a price tag. Maybe ill put in one of those in my duster once i finish the small block and decide 500hp isnt enough and want more lol
 
And the money that you might potentially save on the manifold you may have to dump into getting a second carb. That was one reason I was more drawn to the Indy setup since I reused a carb I already had sitting around. If I had gotten the Edelbrock I would have needed to spend another $100 or more on a matching carb, if I could find one, so I'd be spending near the same amount in the long run.
 
good info on here... this is my end goal for my 76, to have a modern hemi in it, but itès a ways outta the budget for now. ièm hoping by the time i can afford this there will be more parts available, and prices lower, and more scrapyard engines to be had.
 
If you go the carb route just don't tell anyone here you WILL be torn apart limb for limb ask me how I know!!!!!!
 
swifter said:
If you go the carb route just don't tell anyone here you WILL be torn apart limb for limb ask me how I know!!!!!!
Click to expand...

I didn't tear both your arms off, just one, of course I then beat you with it. ;)

All jokes aside, the carb setup is growing on me because it allows someone a simple, cost effective and practical way to swap in the hemi without the the complexity of fuel injection.

In the long run I am hoping that MS3 takes off and we start to compile a database of information to help others with the swap. With Megasquirt we might be able to get the price down to where a guy and swap in a used hemi for under 3K including the price of the hemi. Perhaps it's a pipe dream, but I know we can get the price down.

Regards,

Joe Dokes
 
Carbs are cool , i've had lots of fun with them but I think I'm ready to move on , "with a little help " ;-) .

Joe Dokes I'm near Brisbane , Australia's 3rd most populated City ( about 2 million ) . I have no idea how many 3G Hemi 300"s & Jeeps have been sold here , my guess is 4% of the USA sales , trucks , Chargers & challengers are not available from Chrysler Australia. so as you can imagine used 6.1"s dont come up 4sale often .
Importing a used engine my self is a possability , but it's risky..
At this stage the factory replacement engine @ $7250 sounds resonable considering the seller needs to make some profit after their import costs.

I just had a look at MoparPerformanceonline and it seems these engines are no longer available. P5155437.
 
Have you considered a stroked 5.7? You could end up with more HP at a lower cost. Not trying to talk you out of the 6.1 but considering the cost the 5.7 might offer more bang for the buck.

With a population of two million you should have a pretty healthy supply of used 5.7 Hemis.


Regards

Joe Dokes
 
Used 5.7's are hard to come by aswell , the parts for the stroker have to be imported so it still gets expensive ,
I know of people that have put LS motors in there mopars because of the stupid prices asked for Chrysler gear over here.
 
mo-cars said:
Used 5.7's are hard to come by aswell , the parts for the stroker have to be imported so it still gets expensive ,
I know of people that have put LS motors in there mopars because of the stupid prices asked for Chrysler gear over here.
Click to expand...

That's rough, I thought my swap was getting expensive. I do like the LS motors but putting one in a Mopar is sacrilegious.

Best of luck with the swap.

Regards,

Joe Dokes
 
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