rear disc conversion

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Abodysrule

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Hi, I have a '67 dart with rear drums. It has an 8 3/4 rearend with 10 x 1/3/4 drums. I have front discs, power assisted, on the front. I was thinking of converting to rear discs, as I'm converting from SL6 to 360 Magnum. I'd like to do a kit or whatever is easiest, but not afraid to do otherwise if better options exist.

Any wisdom here? For those who've done it, what is the path of least resistance to rear disc conversion.

Thank you, all.

Brian
 
For most street cars, you'll see zero benefit from the rear disc brakes.
I swapped out my 10" rear drums for a 11.7" rear disc kit and found no benefit other than the appearance.
 
For most street cars, you'll see zero benefit from the rear disc brakes.
I swapped out my 10" rear drums for a 11.7" rear disc kit and found no benefit other than the appearance.
All show, and no extra whoa. :lol:
 
I think that if I ever get my system totally figured out, the rear brakes will finally prove their value.
I can't skid the brakes no matter how hard I press the pedal.

01 Gger.JPG


13" front rotors.

22 4 D.JPG


11.7" rear rotors:

IMG_0442.JPG


It stops okay but isn't quite enough to make me consider them "excellent".

My other car:

JF 1.JPG


Same model, a bit lighter due to several parts missing but it has a front disc, rear drum system and it stops about the same.
 
Sure you'll gain something. Bench racin braggin rights. Go for it.
 
like others have said, not much benefit from a well set up disc/drum set up on a street car.

but in terms of path of least resistance dr. diff is the way to go.
i'd pop for this kit: Mopar 10.7" Rear Disc Brake Kit

it checks all the boxes: compatible with 14" wheels, can use tapered or green bearings, integral parking brake, option for p-brake cables for a few bucks more.
 
Stick with disc front ,drum rear. Easy to get parts. parts are cheaper and ther are upgraded pads and rotors you can get to improve performance. Also stock spec sized brakes work with factory sized wheels, where most aftermarket brakes require larger diameter wheels and tires = more $$$
To get a drastic increase in baking you would have to step up to a multi piston caliper set-up. The old factory disc was a single piston that pushed from the back side of the rotor only. The multi piston Kelsey-Hayes calipers had inside and outside pistons for more even braking pressure on the rotors as well as more leverage for quicker stops.
Most all modern performance disc brake systems use 4 to 6 piston front calipers and 2-4 piston rears.
Of course the modern performance cars not only have more horsepower than old cars but are also much heavier and need the stronger brakes to stop all that mass.
Modern Mopars weigh over 4 thousand pounds !
 
There are at least 2 benefits to rear disc and that is rear lock up. By nature (or design) drum style pads transfer braking outward onto the drum as well as from one pad to the other.
Unless your disc/drum bias is perfect you can lock the rears and have the *** end come around on you. I guess you could add a proportioning valve to the rears.
A second benefit is weight savings. I run front and rear disc and while I have not noticed a huge difference in stopping power, the swap was cheap (puny Jeep GC with prop valve) and
no worries of rear lock-up. I drive like to drive it hard.

edit....I run 8.25 rear but you can go the Mopar Action route and use larger Jeep Patriot disc for OP's 8.75. Will take some minor machine work.
 
OP, you left out one very important piece of information.
Are you staying with the 5x4" bolt circle, or are you changing over to 5x4.5"?
 
Hi, I have a '67 dart with rear drums. It has an 8 3/4 rearend with 10 x 1/3/4 drums. I have front discs, power assisted, on the front. I was thinking of converting to rear discs, as I'm converting from SL6 to 360 Magnum. I'd like to do a kit or whatever is easiest, but not afraid to do otherwise if better options exist.

Any wisdom here? For those who've done it, what is the path of least resistance to rear disc conversion.

Thank you, all.

Brian

I have used Wilwood and TSM. While a little more money, i'll never use anything but the wilwood kits now and after doing this once i'll never run drums on the rear again, for many reasons.
 
To get a drastic increase in baking you would have to step up to a multi piston caliper set-up. The old factory disc was a single piston that pushed from the back side of the rotor only. The multi piston Kelsey-Hayes calipers had inside and outside pistons for more even braking pressure on the rotors as well as more leverage for quicker stops.

Technically, a single piston caliper squeezes the brake pads as much as the opposing piston calipers because it pulls on the outside pad at the same time it pushes the inside pad.

What you gain from a fixed opposing piston caliper are:

1. Reducing resistance as the floating caliper body has to slide to apply pressure to the outside pad
2. Generally a much more rigid caliper body so more force goes into squeezing the pad and less into flexing the caliper

There are some other features such as less pad kick back and the ability to vary the piston sizes to better balance pressure (on 4+ piston calipers) but for the most part the advantages of a fixed caliper are due to a much more effective application of the pressure.

Note that this can be overcome with a floating caliper though. Years ago Ehrenberg did a test when he was swapping to Viper calipers on his Roadrunner (I think) where he did a couple of stops with the Viper caliper on one side and the stock floating caliper on the other. He said it still stopped straight, indicating that he didn't gain any braking advantage by going to Viper calipers. The stock caliper was big enough to overcome the disadvantages and resulted in zero gain. There are other reasons to do the swap, but in this case one of them wasn't more braking.

Note that I can't remember more specifics of the test so I don't remember if it also included going from 11.75" rotors to 13" with the Viper calipers.

Point being, don't assume that just because it has multiple opposing piston calipers, that it must be better.
 
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OK, first I'll answer a question, sorry, I have 15" wheels, large bolt pattern.

It sounds like the upgrades I already made (from 13" wheels, 9" drums all the way around) to front power disc brakes and the larger rear drums, I'm not going to see much benefit going to rear discs. One thing I may need is a vacuum canister to hold more vacuum for stopping, as I notice when I brake sometimes it affects my idle. Of course with a different engine it may be OK, but my slant is pulling pretty good vacuum.

Anyone do a vacuum canister to aid breaking vacuum? I think these are easy to install, but I wouldn't mind seeing people's installs for ideas on can type/location.

Thanks all,

Brian
 
Anyone do a vacuum canister to aid breaking vacuum? I think these are easy to install, but I wouldn't mind seeing people's installs for ideas on can type/location
If the anti back flow valve on your booster is functioning properly you should not herd a resavour on a stock engine

Heck you don't even need power brakes.

My 67 dart 273 2bbl factory front KH Disks and 10 x 1.75 rear drums stops great with no power assist.
 
like others have said, not much benefit from a well set up disc/drum set up on a street car.

but in terms of path of least resistance dr. diff is the way to go.
i'd pop for this kit: Mopar 10.7" Rear Disc Brake Kit

it checks all the boxes: compatible with 14" wheels, can use tapered or green bearings, integral parking brake, option for p-brake cables for a few bucks more.

Agreed, this is what I went with on mine. The parking brake even works perfectly with the stock handle. I left my green bearings in, when I switched over to his brake setup. No issues.
 
Rear drum lock-up ? Not in my 50 + years of driving Dodges. And I have owned over a dozen 69 to 73 models.
Only drum problems ever was on the only one that had 4 wheel drums. Getting off the freeway in the rain. Zero braking until the water burned off the drums/shoes.
Only front disc from now on.
The factories use single piston calipers for their non performance cars for one reason. Expense.
It it cheaper to install 4 wheel disc when the car is assembled. No adjustments needed when installing. All parts are exposed for easy inspection. Simpler mechanism. Less parts.
Braking is not equal on single piston. That is the reason that most older single piston equipped cars have a thicker inner pad when new. Multi piston calipers also used a larger/longer pad since the area of the caliper pistons is increased, your swept pad rotor area is much larger putting more friction to the rotors and allowing for quicker heat dissipation..
 
Yeah, I had rear drum lock up when my Dart had the 9" drums all the way around. No issues with my upgraded setup.
 
Brakes were not adjusted properly. Or leaky seals most of the time....Rear drums have been used for 80 years
 
If the anti back flow valve on your booster is functioning properly you should not herd a resavour on a stock engine
I think the valve works fine, it's a function of how much vacuum the brake booster has; this unit has a smaller volume, so I think with a lot of braking it runs out and pulls more from the intake, thus affecting my idle. With auxiliary vacuum volume (a canister) this is a buffer to keep that from happening.
 
Braking is not equal on single piston. That is the reason that most older single piston equipped cars have a thicker inner pad when new.

I could see some logic in the inner pad being thicker, but I bet it really doesn't matter much. Not going to get a whole lot of wear on the inner pad until the outer pad contacts the rotor. I agree there will be some due to resistance in the caliper body moving, but until that outer pad contacts the rotor the caliper won't be squeezing anything. Assuming the caliper isn't stuck, otherwise absolutely the inner pad will do all the work.

One thing to be aware of is the area of the pistons. If you apply 1000 psi of hydraulic pressure to 6 square inches of piston, you get a much great force than if you apply the same pressure to 4.5 square inches of pistons. And generally a single piston floating caliper has a much larger piston than a fixed 4 piston caliper. A 2.75" "larger" piston A-Body caliper has 5.8 sq. inches while a 2015 Scat Pack 4 piston Brembo caliper has 4.71 sq. inches. So that single piston caliper will squeeze the rotor 23% harder than the Brembo caliper, ignoring losses due to friction from the caliper and pad slides and flex in either caliper.

And no, opposing piston calipers don't get to double the area. Doing so would ignore the "pull" of the single piston caliper (think "equal and opposite reaction.."). Brake torque calculations use total piston area only one side of the rotor for all styles.

One thing a multi piston caliper does do for you is move the pistons towards the edge of the caliper which can have a significant impact on the brake torque. The lever arm is calculated using the center of the pad to average it and a narrower pad will move that out much like adding a pipe to a ratchet. Add that to a much larger rotor and you can have a pretty significant impact on how much brake torque you can generate.

Multi piston calipers also used a larger/longer pad since the area of the caliper pistons is increased, your swept pad rotor area is much larger putting more friction to the rotors and allowing for quicker heat dissipation.

I agree with the heat dissipation, and would add they last longer. But the size of the pad does nothing to add to the stopping power because if you take the same force and apply it over different areas, the one with more area will have less force per square inch. Thus it basically equals out.

That's one reason the 8 piston Z06 calipers get away with 8 individual brake pads. They don't gain any better braking adding the extra material between the pads. Not really sure what the advantage to 8 individual pads is other than potentially frustrating the mechanic doing the brake job.

In the end, brakes are a system and rotor size, pad size, caliper construction, etc. all needs to be taken into account. Can't just say a floating caliper will brake worse than a fixed one.
 
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I think the valve works fine, it's a function of how much vacuum the brake booster has; this unit has a smaller volume, so I think with a lot of braking it runs out and pulls more from the intake, thus affecting my idle. With auxiliary vacuum volume (a canister) this is a buffer to keep that from happening.
Oh, I see, you think maybe the check valve is leaky and I'm losing vacuum...I'll check that first....
 
Brakes were not adjusted properly. Or leaky seals most of the time....Rear drums have been used for 80 years

Another possibility is the self energizing function of drum brakes. It's great for applying more brakes without having to add more foot pressure, but plays havoc with finesse braking. Pretty hard to dance on the threshold of lockup when the brakes are taking over and doing their own thing.
 
If it is low vacuum issue, either an auxiliery pump or hydro-boost would also be options. Hydro-boost is the best as it works off of the power steering pump . So it is hydraulic as opposed to vacuum.
 
Here is another brake pad/piston analogy. Tire patch ( contact area) width. What has more braking friction/traction a 5" wide tire or a 10" wide tire. Given same horsepower, same vehicle weight ?
What happens when a caliper bracket binds/sticks ? Uneven braking.
 
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