Serious Cam Oiling Question?

[ENGLECAMS]

Serious Tech Question For Chrysler engine guys. I am only a cam guy, and don't like what I see with a Chrysler LA 360 I am building (for the first time) The cam has holes in the #2 & #4 journal to pulse oil up to the rocker shafts when the cam lines up with the holes in the bearings. The bearingsboth new and old are drilled @ 120' degrees, the cam is drilled @ 106-107' the hole in #4 is .250" and #2 is .318" maybe because it is further from the oil pump? The bearing holes are smaller than the cam and all the same. When I pin the bearing with a dowel and look the the alignment with the hole in the bearing there is not a lot of alignment here??? Pictures show the Flat Tappet Hyd cam with CWC foundry mark, and EP-18 cast into it which is Engine Power Components who machines virtually all cams in the USA. We cam grinders only put our shape on the lobes, and send them. When I was younger, I would just call Keith Black, but that is no longer an option. Anyone else seen, or had problems with this issue?? Mark Engle Formerly Engle Racing Cams, Note: I have handled hundreds of these cams, but never put a Chrysler LA together personally. I did have to drill a few Top Fuel Cams for Dick LaHaie that Crane fogot to drill, I drilled them @ 120' per Dick LaHaie's instructions.

 

[GTX JOHN]

I have not had an oiling problem with this set up
racing them in Stock/SS for 60+ years.
I do check alignment of holes and make sure
top end is oiling.

Is it still a challenge to get CWC cam cores?

 

[dusterbing the peace]

Perhaps it’s a timing thing where the oil squirts in and by the time the cam rotates a little the other holes are lined up for the oil to squirt out? Had never thought to check this myself.

Does the hole to the heads lead or lag the hole from the main in the direction of travel?

 

[Cal Tonsley]

Just as a note & FWIW, Crane used to machine full annular grooves in their 8620 roller cams for SBM

 

[4spdragtop]

 

[XFX]

I just happened to of had a set of sealed power cam bearings from the early 90-s laying out and just checked a nos 340 cam, a white box cam from Ramchargers (a Detroit based speed shop) a from the late 70s solid (ground by engine dynamics in Detroit) and a late 80-s Clevite version of the mopar 508/292 hydro and all show just as yours does.

Another thing to consider in the larger picture is inaccurate drilling in the block for cam oiling and core shift. I have one block that can never be more then it was and makes one question Chryslers QC processes because it is so far off its hard to grasp how it lived and still ran the 106k miles it did. One cam bearing had a very small sliver of an opening to feed the bearing and rockers and the core shift in the lifter valley is head scratching spooky.

Also just checked a newer elgin and the same.

On the older cam the clevite is marked CWC the other two are 1133 and 1136 all cast in the core.

 

[4spdragtop]

I can't remember if it was our 273 or 340 build, but I saw the same "offset". Now that I think about it, the "offset" was bearing to block. That being said, I also discovered not all camshafts have same oil timing, mine was "different". I noticed when building our 340.

 

[Bewy]

The pulsating flow design has been around for decades in Chrys V8s & does not seem to cause any problems.

 

[teringer]

I had a machine shop cut a small grouve in the 2/4 cam journals on circle track engines I ran ,then you can restrict oil coming thru the head under the shaft if needed ,this is the only way you can save some cheap roller rockers bushing wear when using hydraulic lifters.

 

[ENGLECAMS]

I have not had an oiling problem with this set up
racing them in Stock/SS for 60+ years.
I do check alignment of holes and make sure
top end is oiling.

Is it still a challenge to get CWC cam cores?

YES, It is a serious challenge to get cam blanks from any of the 3 suppliers. CWC is the foundry which makes ALL the castings for USA. There are 3 companies that further machine the castings, drill and tap the holes, hob the gears, and finish grind the journals, only leaving the lobes as cast.

 

[ENGLECAMS]

I just happened to of had a set of sealed power cam bearings from the early 90-s laying out and just checked a nos 340 cam, a white box cam from Ramchargers (a Detroit based speed shop) a from the late 70s solid (ground by engine dynamics in Detroit) and a late 80-s Clevite version of the mopar 508/292 hydro and all show just as yours does.

Another thing to consider in the larger picture is inaccurate drilling in the block for cam oiling and core shift. I have one block that can never be more then it was and makes one question Chryslers QC processes because it is so far off its hard to grasp how it lived and still ran the 106k miles it did. One cam bearing had a very small sliver of an opening to feed the bearing and rockers and the core shift in the lifter valley is head scratching spooky.

Also just checked a newer elgin and the same.

On the older cam the clevite is marked CWC the other two are 1133 and 1136 all cast in the core.

So, your cams and cam bearings look like my pictures not lined up, from the 90's. Interesting, and thank you.

 

[mbaird]

Is it possible that Chrysler wanted to limit the amount of oil going to the heads in stock applications to ensure ample oil to the bottom end ? They could have ussd smaller holes but that might potentially be susceptible to cllogging ? Be interesting to know if hemis had a similar misalignment. I believe ( haven’t read it in a while) that the Direct Connection book addresses oiling mods for racing .

 

[ENGLECAMS]

The pulsating flow design has been around for decades in Chrys V8s & does not seem to cause any problems.

Virtually all Chrysler engines from the 1950's up until the new late modle V-8 had these holes in the cam and oiled up through the block to Shaft Rockers.

 

[furrystump]

My guess on the larger holes in the cam might be just a hedge against large tolerances in the stock block hole locations, but no one ever told the bearing manufacturer. What rockers? More concerning if you are running an aftermarket needle bearing rocker. They tend to bleed off oil pressure more. I think Harlan Sharp says something about restricting oil flow to the rockers. IIRC. Side note, been running a Engle solid flat tappet for years!!!

 

[Inertia]

I have a set of long drills I use to send down from the head and mains to carefully enlarge/align the cam bearing oil holes to the block.

I found this nec, and $dollar prudent when receiving a block back from a machine shop with less than desired hole alignment.
It saved time and potential damage to the cam bearing trying to remove to re-align.

As mentioned, never had an oiling issue to the head .

 

[Ironmike]

Just as a note & FWIW, Crane used to machine full annular grooves in their 8620 roller cams for SBM

yikes! Don't like that without some restriction.

 

[Bewy]

Engle,
Since you are in the cam grinding business, maybe you can answer a question that many of us wonder about. Are there flat tappet lifters being made in the USA, & if so, what companies sell them? Thanks.

 

[ENGLECAMS]

Engle,
Since you are in the cam grinding business, maybe you can answer a question that many of us wonder about. Are there flat tappet lifters being made in the USA, & if so, what companies sell them? Thanks.

WE Engle's sold the business back in 2009 after my father passed away. Lifters are a huge problem, and issue nowadays, my guys @ Engle reccomend using Isky lifters. I am just glad to be out of the business to be honest.

 

[Max1196]

Just an fyi.
Another Blueprint Engine Delay

 

[MOPAROFFICIAL]

WE Engle's sold the business back in 2009 after my father passed away. Lifters are a huge problem, and issue nowadays, my guys @ Engle reccomend using Isky lifters. I am just glad to be out of the business to be honest.

I remember when I needed some sb retainers for particular height, so Chris sent me to your place in Santa Monica. You turned them on your lathe, even let me sit in the racer you had in the garage there. Way cool. Word is youre in n. county now?
I think the oil timing is a non issue with the cams oil through being bigger, making up for the slight misalignment. Its spinning so fast, the pulses are steadily feeding just fine. Never known anyone with starved rockers on a sbm.
Did you find tell of excess wear due to oil starvation?.
...certainly not mine. Good to see you post on here.

 

[TheRacerDave]

FWIW this is what I've done on LA cams for racing. This cam has literally hundreds of 7000+ rpm blasts down the quarter mile with no problems oiling the top end (ran restrictors in the oil passages that feed the rockers, .080" IIRC). The groove is just on journal #2 & 4.

And no, this old Cam Dynamics is no longer in service

 

[MOPAROFFICIAL]

If one wanted to, he could use a small cutting wheel and cut a swale leading to about 6 o clock to extend the oil timing/duration some.
Don't forget to smooth that out of course.