Seriously!!!

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Hersbird said:
Ok so you have a converter you want to use, the B&M 2000 for a 727. What the engine shop is telling you is that it won't bolt up to the factory flexplate they have on that 360 which probably had an 11.75" in converter and your new converter is a 10.75". The factory flexplates were sized to the converter which some 360's did use a larger converter. Now the other problem is that most likely (although not guaranteed) that B&M is neutral balanced which is wrong for a 360.

What corrects both of these problems is a B&M flexplate everyone is talking about. Either number will work in your case, one is drilled for both 11.75 and 10.75 converters and the other is only for the 10.75 converters but clears the starter better on 904s. You could get the converter externally balanced but then you still have the wrong size flexplate. Just buy the B&M one and be done.
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Thank you! That explains why they think my converter is to small. I will relay that info to them and one way or another we will get the correct flex plate on that engine.
 
With all the mallory it would take, it would likely be a 400-500 balance job to do right.
 
For balance you need the following, it is like baking a cake.

Harmonic balancer, crank, rod and piston assembly which includes bearings and rings, flywheel or flex plate.

You are paying to balance the assembly not miss-matched parts.

You need to match the parts before you balance.

I forgot make sure you use the same harmonic balancer bolts and flywheel bolts when you balance, it does make a slight difference that you will use on the engine.
 
I think this is a simple misunderstanding of how parts relate to a 360 engine, between you and the shop.

What I can gather is that your machine shop expected a counterbalanced torque converter.

When you brought a neutral balanced torque converter, they told you that it would not work for the externally balanced 360.

They are probably unaware of the availability of a counterbalanced flexplate, OR perhaps they saw that you had a neutral balanced torque converter and flexplate and just stated that the combination of parts wouldn't work, which is my guess.

I wouldn't take insult to it. It's likely just a communication error. I don't think they are uneducated, afterall, I'd rather see a machinist wave a red flag on a bad balancing act than proceed with the wrong stuff.

It's an easy fix. The type of internal balancing that is being talked about, crackedback explained it. It's expensive and is not a typical rotating assembly balance job, like sireland67 explained.

Just make sure that you have a counterbalanced harmonic for the front of the crank and a counterbalancer at the back. Your choice of either doing it with a flexplate or converter.

If you choose to keep your current converter, which can work (I've done it, as well as lots of others), the weld marks on the converter are of no concern. People often knock counterbalance weights off of converters and run them neutral balanced, for engines that call for internal balancing, like a 318 or 340.
 
DaveBonds said:
I think this is a simple misunderstanding of how parts relate to a 360 engine, between you and the shop.

What I can gather is that your machine shop expected a counterbalanced torque converter.

When you brought a neutral balanced torque converter, they told you that it would not work for the externally balanced 360.

They are probably unaware of the availability of a counterbalanced flexplate, OR perhaps they saw that you had a neutral balanced torque converter and flexplate and just stated that the combination of parts wouldn't work, which is my guess.

I wouldn't take insult to it. It's likely just a communication error. I don't think they are uneducated, afterall, I'd rather see a machinist wave a red flag on a bad balancing act than proceed with the wrong stuff.

It's an easy fix. The type of internal balancing that is being talked about, crackedback explained it. It's expensive and is not a typical rotating assembly balance job, like sireland67 explained.

Just make sure that you have a counterbalanced harmonic for the front of the crank and a counterbalancer at the back. Your choice of either doing it with a flexplate or converter.

If you choose to keep your current converter, which can work (I've done it, as well as lots of others), the weld marks on the converter are of no concern. People often knock counterbalance weights off of converters and run them neutral balanced, for engines that call for internal balancing, like a 318 or 340.
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Dave you were right on about this!

The guy that was talking to me about it on Friday, knew nothing about the engine building process and was only a phone/parts guy. Why they have someone call and try to explain something technical when they dont know what is going on is beyond me.

I did call back this morning and after my converstaion with one of the guys that knows the process. The TC I gave them to use bolts up to the flexplate they have mounted to the engine right now. They expected a counterbalanced converter and said they can use mine they will just have to add a lot of weight to it and its very time consuming.

I then mentioned the B&M flexplate to them and I gave them the part #. They were unaware of it and said they would be more comfortable if they called B&M to ask them questions about it. So if they are happy with what they hear, they will just order it up.

As for the balancer they are using a correct 360 balancer. Just wanted to give a update
 
straightlinespeed said:
Dave you were right on about this!

The guy that was talking to me about it on Friday, knew nothing about the engine building process and was only a phone/parts guy. Why they have someone call and try to explain something technical when they dont know what is going on is beyond me.

I did call back this morning and after my converstaion with one of the guys that knows the process. The TC I gave them to use bolts up to the flexplate they have mounted to the engine right now. They expected a counterbalanced converter and said they can use mine they will just have to add a lot of weight to it and its very time consuming.

I then mentioned the B&M flexplate to them and I gave them the part #. They were unaware of it and said they would be more comfortable if they called B&M to ask them questions about it. So if they are happy with what they hear, they will just order it up.

As for the balancer they are using a correct 360 balancer. Just wanted to give a update
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just for the sake of argument, It literally took me 5 minutes each to position and tack on 2 20 oz. weights on my 727 converter. don't let them rape you. it doesn't take a lot weight to match the balancer
 
external balance 360....
balancer up front is special. 360 specific. NOT a 318 or a 340 (340 has a couple types, some were internal balanced, some external). you need the 360 specific balancer if you have a stock crank that requires external balance.


then in the back either the Torque Converter OR the Flex plate have an offset/balance (NOT both) ... one or the other.

most just get the B&M flexplate (has a cutout section for the balance) so they can use a neutral balance Torque converter.

just like stated above in previous posts
 
73AbodEE is right. It takes an experienced shop nearly no time at all to counterbalance the torque converter.

Don't pay them to do that if they don't know how and have no experience with it.

The B&M can only go on one way. The six bolts on the back of the crank are not symmetrical. one of the bolts is offset so that the flex plate can only go on that way.

Nobody needs to do any kind of balancing at all to your converter. They just need parts to bolt to the crank, when they do their rotating assembly balance.

There is a way that you can balance the parts yourself, too. If you get a gram scale from the post office, use the heaviest connecting rods with the lightest pistons and get them within .7 grams of each other in total weight, with the wrist pin, piston, connecting rod, cap, bolts and nuts. If you have to remove weight, trim some from casting flash.

When your machine shop does the cylinder bore, they should do the balancing first, so they know which piston and rod assembly will end up on each journal. They should mic the piston diameter and taylor any slight difference to each bore and hone.

The factory never went to balancing extents, beyond crank balancing and checking parts within certain number tolerances. The blocks were never matched to specific parts, meaning each piston wasn't matched to each cylinder, per individual part measurements. When you have rotating assembly balanced, a good shop checks each piston before boring that cylinder. The factory assembled it by what they had in the line.

Your engine should vibrate less than a factory engine after everything is done.
 
I just dont think this shop has had much experience with neutral balanced converters from the sound of it.

The person I spoke with today on the phone mentioned they would have to weld 400 grams to the converter if I wanted to do it that way. Im not sure if that was just a number they pulled out of the air or an actual #. I also dont know if that is a lot. So for a piece of mind I had them order the flexplate. That way I feel better about it all. They should have it all balanced out this week and then assembly begins. Its just frustrating because this is a pretty well known engine shop here where I live and I wouldnt have thought I would have these issues with them. I will for sure be talking to them when I go in to pay for this!

Thanks for the input on how to balance at home. I never knew how that worked.
 
It's just a reciprocating parts weight change. When you get new parts, the pistons weigh more, counterbalancing to the crank is done or it's made up on removing weight from the cast iron rods to make up for the additional .030" of metal in piston and iron or moly and stainless rings.

They have a jig to set it up in to check everything and I'm sure that they will check each new piston and match each bore respectively, if it's within .001 to .002 so you don't have a tight piston in a tight hole, etc.

A few more bits that will help you with your 360 engine build up for your Scamp, even though it's a bit out of context to the torque converter-

When you get the engine back, just be sure that they know that the slot for the distributor drive cam gear should allow the distributor rotor to point at the #1 cylinder on top dead center. You may want to bring the distributor with you when you see them and make sure they set it correctly.

Check page 7 of this PDF file, from Hughes Engines, to understand how to get your engine to fire up quickly. It works awesome. -

[ame]http://www.hughesengines.com/Upload/productInstructions/New_Camshaft_InstructionsMar2010.pdf[/ame]

Also, 0 degrees (top dead center) on the crank installed to the cam, with the timing gear index dots facing each other (crank gear dot on top, cam gear dot on bottom), as per all timing chain set instructions is actually on 180/ overlap stroke and not on 0/ compression stroke. So if they put the cam in with the index dots on the timing gears facing each other, instead of both facing up, the rotor should be pointing at the firewall on the distributor.

Either way and the cam is properly set to the crank, because the crank rotates 2 times for every 1 revolution of the cam. Every revolution of the crank will either make the dots face each other or both face up (dots up, dots facing each other, dots up, facing each other, etc. )

This makes a difference as to where your rotor faces. You have to be certain that the rotor on the dist. is not set improperly for initial start, if you are installing a new flat tappet cam.You have to be vigilant on making proper arrangements (fuel bowls in carb full, a few pumps down the intake, good spark, etc.) before cranking the engine once. You have to get it to fire on the 2nd or 3rd revolution and run at 1500-3000 slowly revving the engine for 30 mins to get the cam broken in. Be sure to get good break in oil and change it after the first 200-500 miles.

If you have a water leak that isn't nuts, ignore it and let the engine run for 30 mins. Use a good fan to feed the radiator.
 
straightlinespeed said:
I just dont think this shop has had much experience with neutral balanced converters from the sound of it.

The person I spoke with today on the phone mentioned they would have to weld 400 grams to the converter if I wanted to do it that way. Im not sure if that was just a number they pulled out of the air or an actual #. I also dont know if that is a lot. So for a piece of mind I had them order the flexplate. That way I feel better about it all. They should have it all balanced out this week and then assembly begins. Its just frustrating because this is a pretty well known engine shop here where I live and I wouldnt have thought I would have these issues with them. I will for sure be talking to them when I go in to pay for this!

Thanks for the input on how to balance at home. I never knew how that worked.
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I would NOT want 400 grams welded on MY converter LMAO I don't know where the hell they would put it all

for the sake of comparison here is the layout for a cast crank , externally balanced 440 torque converter . the 360 is hardly any different
 

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400 grams is almost 1 pound of weight. WTF.

I hope they didn't put a magnum balancer on it and it needs an LA balancer!
 
73AbodEE said:
liked cracked said , please make sure they have the right balancer
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I verified that today when I called them also. They told me they have a 360 balancer. I told them I brought in my 318 balancer and they said they could not use that and had the correct one. So that part they actually have right.
 
DaveBonds said:
When you get the engine back, just be sure that they know that the slot for the distributor drive cam gear should allow the distributor rotor to point at the #1 cylinder on top dead center. You may want to bring the distributor with you when you see them and make sure they set it correctly.

Check page 7 of this PDF file, from Hughes Engines, to understand how to get your engine to fire up quickly. It works awesome. -

http://www.hughesengines.com/Upload/productInstructions/New_Camshaft_InstructionsMar2010.pdf

Also, 0 degrees (top dead center) on the crank installed to the cam, with the timing gear index dots facing each other (crank gear dot on top, cam gear dot on bottom), as per all timing chain set instructions is actually on 180/ overlap stroke and not on 0/ compression stroke. So if they put the cam in with the index dots on the timing gears facing each other, instead of both facing up, the rotor should be pointing at the firewall on the distributor.

Either way and the cam is properly set to the crank, because the crank rotates 2 times for every 1 revolution of the cam. Every revolution of the crank will either make the dots face each other or both face up (dots up, dots facing each other, dots up, facing each other, etc. )

This makes a difference as to where your rotor faces. You have to be certain that the rotor on the dist. is not set improperly for initial start, if you are installing a new flat tappet cam.You have to be vigilant on making proper arrangements (fuel bowls in carb full, a few pumps down the intake, good spark, etc.) before cranking the engine once. You have to get it to fire on the 2nd or 3rd revolution and run at 1500-3000 slowly revving the engine for 30 mins to get the cam broken in. Be sure to get good break in oil and change it after the first 200-500 miles.

If you have a water leak that isn't nuts, ignore it and let the engine run for 30 mins. Use a good fan to feed the radiator.
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Dave, I dont have the distributor with me and wont be able to bring that to them. If for some reason they do not set this stuff correctly, this is something I can do with out dismantling the entire engine correct?

Also if I understand correctly. The engine will fire at either location, pointing at the firewall or pointing at #1 cylinder.
 
straightlinespeed said:
Dave, I dont have the distributor with me and wont be able to bring that to them. If for some reason they do not set this stuff correctly, this is something I can do with out dismantling the entire engine correct?
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I will let dave answer that since you asked him , but I do suggest you check the timing etc etc first *regardless* before you fire it . I hope it goes smooth for you. if it is at all possible, get one of them dudes down to your house right before you fire it and break it in , just to cover your *** in case something goes wrong , they will have to fix it and you don't get burned.
 
73AbodEE said:
I will let dave answer that since you asked him , but I do suggest you check the timing etc etc first *regardless* before you fire it . I hope it goes smooth for you. if it is at all possible, get one of them dudes down to your house right before you fire it and break it in , just to cover your *** in case something goes wrong , they will have to fix it and you don't get burned.
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Actually anyone can answer, the more the merrier! I love all this input, its how ya learn right!

I will definetly ask them about all that break in stuff and if things go wrong. They are however giving me a 3 year warranty on the engine, they do with all there engines.
 
straightlinespeed said:
I verified that today when I called them also. They told me they have a 360 balancer. I told them I brought in my 318 balancer and they said they could not use that and had the correct one. So that part they actually have right.
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Don't be so sure. There is a Magnum 360 and LA 360 balancer and they DO NOT interchange for balance purposes.
 
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