Start..no run *resolved*

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canyncarvr

canyncarvr

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Hello folks:

I got a good bit of rebuff when I asked a question earlier. People wanted to know things I hadn't posted...I didn't think were at all related. I had NO intention of leaving stuff out, thought I was doing everyone a favor. I hope to do better this time.

Took my Duster to town for some clear 92 fuel. It started, ran, restarted, ran summore, stopped by the grocery store...started and ran again. Fine.

At home, sitting in the driveway idling, it quit. It's never had a problem idling for a good bit...it's not something I generally do. Tried a restart. Engine started, died when ignition released to 'run'.

Ignition box is a Standard LX-101. It's been in for a good 5-6 years. It's a 4-pin box.

I found the BY (blue wire/yellow trace...feed to ignition+ at the ignition box) broken off the back of the right hand (looking at it) ballast connector. Gee...how easy can THIS be!!??

My ballast is NOT currently in use. I have a shunt between the bottom female spades, left to right (four pin ballast). The nylon connectors are NOT plugged onto the ballast. This can NOT be a ballast resistor problem because the resistor is hooked up to nothing. Well...it IS bolted/screwed to the firewall.

I removed the female spade from the connector the BY broke off of. I opened the crimp/barrel of the old connector to make room for the BY wire, I used 320g black paper on the connector, cleaned with 99% alcohol, flux applied, wire and terminal tinned before closing the crimp, soldering the two (terminal/wire) together. I stabilized the connection with heat shrink. I was AMRIP (Avionics Module Repair) in the service. I don't always do a 100% job, but do know my way around electronics with a soldering iron.

I re-placed the female spade into the nylon connector. MY VM shows I have voltage on the BY wire at both start and run key positions. Repeat...ballast is NOT connected, shunt wire in place as its been for many moons.

Engine starts with key in 'start', dies when key is released to 'run'.

It's DTST..Doin' The Same Thing!!

I have voltage (measured with a VOM) at both the BY (blue wire/yellow trace) at the igntion box plug AND at the + side of the coil in both <start> and <run> key postions.

I do not understand the situation: Engine starts with key turned to <start>, but the engine dies when the key is released to <run>.

Hope I didn't leave out any deemed necessary information this time.

Any ideas?

Thanks.
 
canyncarvr said:
Hello folks:

I got a good bit of rebuff when I asked a question earlier. People wanted to know things I hadn't posted...I didn't think were at all related. I had NO intention of leaving stuff out, thought I was doing everyone a favor. I hope to do better this time.

Took my Duster to town for some clear 92 fuel. It started, ran, restarted, ran summore, stopped by the grocery store...started and ran again. Fine.

At home, sitting in the driveway idling, it quit. It's never had a problem idling for a good bit...it's not something I generally do. Tried a restart. Engine started, died when ignition released to 'run'.

Ignition box is a Standard LX-101. It's been in for a good 5-6 years. It's a 4-pin box.

I found the BY (blue wire/yellow trace...feed to ignition+ at the ignition box) broken off the back of the right hand (looking at it) ballast connector. Gee...how easy can THIS be!!??

My ballast is NOT currently in use. I have a shunt between the bottom female spades, left to right (four pin ballast). The nylon connectors are NOT plugged onto the ballast. This can NOT be a ballast resistor problem because the resistor is hooked up to nothing. Well...it IS bolted/screwed to the firewall.

I removed the female spade from the connector the BY broke off of. I opened the crimp/barrel of the old connector to make room for the BY wire, I used 320g black paper on the connector, cleaned with 99% alcohol, flux applied, wire and terminal tinned before closing the crimp, soldering the two (terminal/wire) together. I stabilized the connection with heat shrink. I was AMRIP (Avionics Module Repair) in the service. I don't always do a 100% job, but do know my way around electronics with a soldering iron.

I re-placed the female spade into the nylon connector. MY VM shows I have voltage on the BY wire at both start and run key positions. Repeat...ballast is NOT connected, shunt wire in place as its been for many moons.

Engine starts with key in 'start', dies when key is released to 'run'.

It's DTST..Doin' The Same Thing!!

I have voltage (measured with a VOM) at both the BY (blue wire/yellow trace) at the igntion box plug AND at the + side of the coil in both <start> and <run> key postions.

I do not understand the situation: Engine starts with key turned to <start>, but the engine dies when the key is released to <run>.

Hope I didn't leave out any deemed necessary information this time.

Any ideas?

Thanks.
Click to expand...
is it really dieing with the key??? or is it a possable pluged fuel filter or if you have a elect fuel pump..it should have a start then a run mode....but some are just wired to hot alt....are you showing hot to the mod /points in the run mode??......if it has elect ign....your mod could be pooping out??....hot wire around your ign sw...test it.......
 
If you have a ballast resistor, unplug both sides. Ohm the resistor. If it's open, replace it.\

Nevermind. I went back and found where you're not using a ballast. Possible ignition switch failure. I would cut the key to run and get a test light and start probing the 12V run wire into the cabin and see where the break is.
 
canyncarvr said:
Hello folks:

I got a good bit of rebuff when I asked a question earlier. People wanted to know things I hadn't posted...I didn't think were at all related. I had NO intention of leaving stuff out, thought I was doing everyone a favor. I hope to do better this time.

Took my Duster to town for some clear 92 fuel. It started, ran, restarted, ran summore, stopped by the grocery store...started and ran again. Fine.

At home, sitting in the driveway idling, it quit. It's never had a problem idling for a good bit...it's not something I generally do. Tried a restart. Engine started, died when ignition released to 'run'.

Ignition box is a Standard LX-101. It's been in for a good 5-6 years. It's a 4-pin box.

I found the BY (blue wire/yellow trace...feed to ignition+ at the ignition box) broken off the back of the right hand (looking at it) ballast connector. Gee...how easy can THIS be!!??

My ballast is NOT currently in use. I have a shunt between the bottom female spades, left to right (four pin ballast). The nylon connectors are NOT plugged onto the ballast. This can NOT be a ballast resistor problem because the resistor is hooked up to nothing. Well...it IS bolted/screwed to the firewall.

I removed the female spade from the connector the BY broke off of. I opened the crimp/barrel of the old connector to make room for the BY wire, I used 320g black paper on the connector, cleaned with 99% alcohol, flux applied, wire and terminal tinned before closing the crimp, soldering the two (terminal/wire) together. I stabilized the connection with heat shrink. I was AMRIP (Avionics Module Repair) in the service. I don't always do a 100% job, but do know my way around electronics with a soldering iron.

I re-placed the female spade into the nylon connector. MY VM shows I have voltage on the BY wire at both start and run key positions. Repeat...ballast is NOT connected, shunt wire in place as its been for many moons.

Engine starts with key in 'start', dies when key is released to 'run'.

It's DTST..Doin' The Same Thing!!

I have voltage (measured with a VOM) at both the BY (blue wire/yellow trace) at the igntion box plug AND at the + side of the coil in both <start> and <run> key postions.

I do not understand the situation: Engine starts with key turned to <start>, but the engine dies when the key is released to <run>.

Hope I didn't leave out any deemed necessary information this time.

Any ideas?

Thanks.
Click to expand...
When checking voltages are you checking after the switch comes from the start position back to the run position or from the off position to the run position?
 
What I would do is attach a light or a buzzer to the IGN run circuit. Now turn the switch to run and wiggle it all around. If the light comes on any or the buzzer tries to sound, then the switch needs replacing.
 
About a bulkhead problem or ignition switch: There is a solid (VOM measured) voltage at the ignition box at both <start> and <run> key positions. When the key is moved to <run> from <start>, the engine stops like it's been switched off. It's immediate. It's repetitive. It's repeatable. That's past the switch and firewall connectors.

About switch movement: Voltage is present all the time at the ignition box + (BY wire) whether in <start> or <run>...a slightly higher voltage in the <start> position. Moving from off to <run> or from <start> to <run>, the meter readings are consistent.

I read a note elsewhere with this symptom, the resolution was changing the ignition box. I have a couple of boxes. I'll change it tomorrow. Has anyone experienced such a situation? A failed ignition box causing such an issue?

I don't know how that could be possible...but electricity does backfeed in very strange ways sometimes.

Oh...I have not disconnected my tach yet. Gott'a do that. I had a tach, I think, that did this once. Something about the slightly higher voltage to the coil at <start> (the induced field and subsequent collapse is hundreds of volts on the - side) did start the engine, but <run> didn't work, and the tach was the problem. I'm not sure I recall the particulars correctly, but the tach DID cause the problem. It was decades ago. ...just thought of this a moment ago.

I'll change the box, disconnect the tach, hotwire the coil tomorrow.

Thanks for the input!
 
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My similar problem was caused by a loose rivet on the run contact of the ignition switch. (Contact would spin around). Would start but die. It presented itself intermittently as I was driving sometimes. I could shake the wires around and it would stay running. Replaced the switch and all was fixed.
 
canyncarvr said:
About switch movement: Voltage is present all the time at the ignition box + (BY wire) whether in <start> or <run>...a slightly higher voltage in the <start> position. Moving from off to <run> or from <start> to <run>, the meter readings are consistent.
Click to expand...
With the ballast resistor not in play you should have a higher voltage in the run position than in the crank position. Not sure why you are seeing the reverse. What are your voltage numbers? Is the voltage at the coil lower in the run position also? Check voltage at the ignition box by grounding your meter to the ignition box metal shell then compare voltage by grounding to the battery negitive to check your ground. Do the same when checking coil voltage. You may have a poor ground. Also do you have battery voltage on the negitive side of the coil in the run position? Another possibility is that you have a poor connection somewhere in the run circuit. Enough of a connection for the meter to read voltage but not enough when taxed by the ignition system. You could test this by jumpering a wire from the battery pos to the coil positive via the spade connector where the repair was done. Start the vehicle if it runs disconnect the jumper wire to see if it shuts off.
 
Just checking. Do you have the connectors still connected to the ballast resistor but the ballast resistor is defeated wth a shunt? It seems odd that the broken wire that was repaired that, when broken would give you the same symptoms you are having now. Despite having taken measures to clean and then solder the wire to the connector maybe somehow that connection may be compromised with a partial connection? That may also explain the lower voltage reading. However, it is possible that a separate problem cropped up at the same time the repair was made.
 
92b said:
With the ballast resistor not in play you should have a higher voltage in the run position than in the crank position. Not sure why you are seeing the reverse. What are your voltage numbers? Is the voltage at the coil lower in the run position also? Check voltage at the ignition box by grounding your meter to the ignition box metal shell then compare voltage by grounding to the battery negitive to check your ground. Do the same when checking coil voltage. You may have a poor ground. Also do you have battery voltage on the negitive side of the coil in the run position? Another possibility is that you have a poor connection somewhere in the run circuit. Enough of a connection for the meter to read voltage but not enough when taxed by the ignition system. You could test this by jumpering a wire from the battery pos to the coil positive via the spade connector where the repair was done. Start the vehicle if it runs disconnect the jumper wire to see if it shuts off.
Click to expand...


92b said:
Just checking. Do you have the connectors still connected to the ballast resistor but the ballast resistor is defeated wth a shunt? It seems odd that the broken wire that was repaired that, when broken would give you the same symptoms you are having now. Despite having taken measures to clean and then solder the wire to the connector maybe somehow that connection may be compromised with a partial connection? That may also explain the lower voltage reading. However, it is possible that a separate problem cropped up at the same time the repair was made.
Click to expand...

Connectors are NOT plugged in to the ballast.

Voltage readings taken using a meter ground connection directly to the body...not a bolt or screw that's been there for 45 years. A btw, but the battery is in the trunk with ITS ground connected to the body. Engine has a battery cable from a head to the firewall. It's been that way since race days of long ago. Ignition box has star washers underneath its mounting hardware.

Yes. It seems odd to me, too.

The voltages measured (<start> and <run>) should be the same, or close to it. Differences in wire length and connection resistance will account for SOME difference. When checking at the ignition box + and the coil, the measurements are different also...and also expected.

If I actually get the problem resolved I should know if two things happened at once or not. Co-inkydinks are unlikely in my world. SOMEthing happened, I just don't know what, yet.

Yes. I understand that continuity or a voltage measurement does not equal actual 'tron movement when current is involved.

Can't say about measuring 12V at the - side of the coil. I never looked at that...would not expect that to be the case. The coil should be 'on' unless the spark box breaks the - side shouldn't it? That's the 'why' of the common advice to not leave the key 'on' when the engine is not running. Mopar's chrome box usage instructions made a point of that, others mention it btw. The Accel 140001 instructions say the same.

I get that you asked the question of voltage at the - of the coil...you didn't SAY what should be there. ;)

Hot-wiring the coil is on my list of things to do.
 
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Resolution: It's the tach.

I disconnected the tach from the coil-. <Start>/<Run> fine. OK...a bit of a miss I think, but that's for another ponderment. I had a coil do that once...

While running, I touched the tach wire to the coil -. Engine stopped.

My Standard LX-101 liveth! ...good thing I just bought another one. Two spares is good...right? I've got a bad spark box (got from NAPA) that has a shorted TO3. I keep that on the bench 'cuz I'm going to fix IT one day. yeah...right...:rolleyes:

Thanks for the suggestions!
 
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A bit of a footnote. I am saying only that my tach was what made this failure go away when the tach is removed. Is there something else in the circuit that, by its 'less than' performance put the tach in such a critical position? Likely. If I wired this tach (a Mallory with knobs for a shift indication light AND a rev-limiter) into YOUR car, your car AND the tach may well work just fine.

Consider its operation. The ignition box has to shut the current flow through the coil off hard enough to ensure a good coil field collapse and be able to resist the hundreds of volts generated on the coil - during that process. Meanwhile, the tach has to sample that signal well enough to drive itself without effecting the collapse of the field and negatively effecting ignition spark generation. It ends up being a rather delicate balance. In this case and particular situation, the process is certainly out of balance, or operational limits.

I just might get my white-face autometer tach installed yet!
 
the ignition box depending on type
can
1) disconnect the coil from ground causing it to switch off and make a spark, simple, effective

2) pump supply voltage to the coil negative which means both primary + connection and primary - connection are at supply voltage and the coil will be off.... 12v both sides = coil not on.
less simple but achieves the same outcome

Tacho
if it connects to the coil negative with no external adapter boxes or anything like that it is the basic standard set up used by many. It is triggered from the 200-400V back emf in the primary as the spark is unleashed from the secondary of the coil. the collapsing field that creates the spark in the secondary also makes a tiny version of the same effect in the primary the result is a backwards pulse of 200-400 v

for the tacho to impact the operation of the coil it needs to be the wrong type or have shorted out or broken down inside or its wire has a short to ground....

situation 1 if the tacho or its wire has shorted out or a capacitor in it has failed it could be acting as a ground in which case the ignition box can not switch off the coil and you have no spark. if a capacitor has failed it might fail as a short from one plate to the other... it will have some resistance. and the impact of the short may vary depending on if other capacitors in the circuit are still operational and are changing up under these exceptional circumstances.

situation 2
the short in the Tacho causes the situation where the ignition module takes the coil negative to supply voltage to switch it off but it can't because the coil negative is connected to a short to ground in the tacho hence the coil stays on all the time and gets very hot. expect to fry you ignition box.

you can cause a tacho failure by plugging a 12 volt or 5 volt square wave signal driven tacho into coil negative and exposing its circuitry to the 200 volt spike.

some of them designed to be driven by a tacho signal from ECU or expensive ignition box. NOT the 200-400 volt spike off the coil negative.

you are the second person i have known to have had a "NO start" due to a problem with a tacho that previously worked fine, in the last couple of years, and id never even heard of that as a thing in 35 years as a car hobby kinda guy...

Dave
 
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Footnote 2?

How about this: The power wire to the spark box broke. With an electrically unknown (at that point) lump now connected to the '-' of the ignition coil, might the signal the tach was then subjected to have damaged it? That would make the two failures NOT concurrent but sequential.

Someone can test that. Have your rig running and cut/disconnect the BY wire to the box. Let me know if your $400 tach gets burnt. ...all in the name of science yanno.
 
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