Starter issues

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7duce swinger

7duce swinger

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Hey guys, haven't been on here in a while now. Well I've bought my dart back that I sold four years ago! Somehow managed to get a hold of the guy and ended up getting it back. It's a mess as it has sat for years in a barn and what looks like in a field maybe, as well.

Well since I've gotten it back I've freshened it up and added some parts, it's a 72 swinger 318/904 car. I have been trying to fire it up and hit has once... It started and ran for about 30 seconds and I turned it off.
Well, I went to start it up again and it cranked, fired up and was good til I heard the starter keep spinning. So I turned it off and the starter kept going.

My question is, is this a starter issue or a starter relay issue? With key off, I connect the battery cable and the starter will spin up until I pull the positive cable off. And it will keep doing the same thing every time I touch the post with the cable.

Does anyone know what the fix for this would be?? It just spins and spins and spins. Might I add that it Doesn't crank the motor. Motor doesn't turn, it's only the loud whining pitch of the starter spinning.

Any help would be appreciated.
 
image.jpeg
 
This is what I'm working with. Starter was new when I sold it. And the guy didn't really touch the car. Besides these wires. And some intake swapping.

image.jpeg
 
EDIT Look at the "square" relay terminal, the one pretty much in the middle of the relay THERE SHOULD ONLY BE one wire going to that......and it should go from there directly down to the starter solenoid. (small terminal) Did someone install a start "push button" in the car?


EDIT....SECOND thing to try is disconnect first one, then the other, of the small "push on" wires off that relay. If that does not stop it, disconnect the wire going to the "square" terminal. If THAT does not stop it, time to get down to the starter. You may have inadvertently jumpered the two starter terminals across, IE either swiveled one of the wires when tightening, or they are otherwise touching. If not that, then a solenoid problem.
 
67Dart273 said:
EDIT Look at the "square" relay terminal, the one pretty much in the middle of the relay THERE SHOULD ONLY BE one wire going to that......and it should go from there directly down to the starter solenoid. (small terminal) Did someone install a start "push button" in the car?


EDIT....SECOND thing to try is disconnect first one, then the other, of the small "push on" wires off that relay. If that does not stop it, disconnect the wire going to the "square" terminal. If THAT does not stop it, time to get down to the starter. You may have inadvertently jumpered the two starter terminals across, IE either swiveled one of the wires when tightening, or they are otherwise touching. If not that, then a solenoid problem.
Click to expand...


Hi, and not exactly push button but another ignition switch hidden. Uses a key. But I know one of the wires runs to the ignition that's on it now. Could that be it?
 
67Dart273 said:
EDIT Look at the "square" relay terminal, the one pretty much in the middle of the relay THERE SHOULD ONLY BE one wire going to that......and it should go from there directly down to the starter solenoid. (small terminal) Did someone install a start "push button" in the car?


EDIT....SECOND thing to try is disconnect first one, then the other, of the small "push on" wires off that relay. If that does not stop it, disconnect the wire going to the "square" terminal. If THAT does not stop it, time to get down to the starter. You may have inadvertently jumpered the two starter terminals across, IE either swiveled one of the wires when tightening, or they are otherwise touching. If not that, then a solenoid problem.
Click to expand...


So there's only supposed to be one wire to the relay? The center square terminal only had to have one wire? I believe it's for the ignition switch. The column does not work btw. Don't know why it doesn't work either.
 
Start by unhooking those two wires, identify the one going to the starter and try hooking it back up. I have no idea what has transpired with "extra" ignition switches.

That is a simple circuit

What year/ make/ model we workin on?

What transmission?
 
I've removed the yellow wire and it doesn't do it anymore. Does anyone know what the yellow wire is for exactly?
 
67Dart273 said:
Start by unhooking those two wires, identify the one going to the starter and try hooking it back up. I have no idea what has transpired with "extra" ignition switches.

That is a simple circuit

What year/ make/ model we workin on?

What transmission?
Click to expand...


Forgot to put all that in but it's a 72 dart swinger. Has a 318 with a 904 trans. The one going to starter is the green wire. As well as one of the black wires going to the tiny terminal on the starter.
I disconnected one of the wires where you say it should only be one wire, but now the key does not work. I believe that's the ignition wire. And then I removed the yellow wire that's a simple pull off on the very bottom of the relay and it is not doing that anymore. What does them at yellow wire control? Or where does it come from?
 
you need to pull one wire at a time and see if the trouble goes away. What you are trying to do, here, is narrow things down. So itemize what you removed, one at a time, "does it stop" the starter?

Here's how this works.........


Your starter solenoid.........down on / in the starter........has a big main battery wire, and the small solenoid wire. If you apply power to the small terminal, the solenoid pulls in and operates the starter.

THAT SOLENOID draws a LOT of current, so ma used a firewall mounted relay for TWO reasons.......it removes load from the ignition switch, and gives a method to operate the neutral safety switch.

The two 'push on' terminals on the relay are the relay COIL (electromagnet) They are electrically interchangeable. One of them goes down the firewall, to the transmission neutral safety switch and connects to the MIDDLE terminal of the NSS. The NSS is GROUNDED in park or neutral, thus providing a ground for the relay coil

The remaining "push on" terminal hooks to your yellow start wire which comes from the ignition switch. Twist the key, the yellow engages the relay.

The largest stud on the relay is 1/2 of the relay contacts AND is a battery junction point. That IS battery power

When the NSS is grounded, and you twist the key, the relay engages, jumpering the big batt stud to the "square" screw terminal. THAT then feeds battery power down to the starter solenoid.
 
67Dart273 said:
you need to pull one wire at a time and see if the trouble goes away. What you are trying to do, here, is narrow things down. So itemize what you removed, one at a time, "does it stop" the starter?

Here's how this works.........


Your starter solenoid.........down on / in the starter........has a big main battery wire, and the small solenoid wire. If you apply power to the small terminal, the solenoid pulls in and operates the starter.

THAT SOLENOID draws a LOT of current, so ma used a firewall mounted relay for TWO reasons.......it removes load from the ignition switch, and gives a method to operate the neutral safety switch.

The two 'push on' terminals on the relay are the relay COIL (electromagnet) They are electrically interchangeable. One of them goes down the firewall, to the transmission neutral safety switch and connects to the MIDDLE terminal of the NSS. The NSS is GROUNDED in park or neutral, thus providing a ground for the relay coil

The remaining "push on" terminal hooks to your yellow start wire which comes from the ignition switch. Twist the key, the yellow engages the relay.

The largest stud on the relay is 1/2 of the relay contacts AND is a battery junction point. That IS battery power

When the NSS is grounded, and you twist the key, the relay engages, jumpering the big batt stud to the "square" screw terminal. THAT then feeds battery power down to the starter solenoid.
Click to expand...


I did as you said at first. Pulled them one at a time. Neither stopped it, only thing that stopped it was pulling the Pos cable. Then I did the yellow wire and it stopped or so I thought. I just started it successfully and it was fine, so I started it again and turned it off and then it did it again. So anything else to try? Btw I have no neutral safety switch connected. No wires going down there. In my pic the green wire goes to the terminal with the big positive cable. One of the blacks goes to the small terminal. The other black wire on the relay goes back up to the ignition.
 
Pulling the yellow cable, and it didn't happen and then all of a sudden started to happen again.
 
At this point I would be checking the wiring to the starter FIRST and make sure a stray strand is not shorting. You may have say, melted / abraided insulation, and causing an intermittent.

This is about all the help I can give you
 
67Dart273 said:
At this point I would be checking the wiring to the starter FIRST and make sure a stray strand is not shorting. You may have say, melted / abraided insulation, and causing an intermittent.

This is about all the help I can give you
Click to expand...

Thanks for all the help, I appreciate anything you can give me at this point. Assuming there is nothing shorting or touching. Would it in the end be a starter issue, or starter relay issue? Could it be the relay? Could it be starter? It's been rocking this relay since before I bought the car back in say 2009. I've checked the wires, and none are touching nor have any strands showing. I'm guessing under dash wiring or some problem somewhere..
 
Well, LOL, that's what you are trying to find out. Could be an intermittent starter relay. If you pull the wire off the "square screw" that feeds down to the solenoid, that ISOLATES the starter relay. So with that off, if it still cranks "unwanted" then it's in the area of the solenoid or the wires right there at the solenoid. Not likely to be the starter, but SURE could be the solenoid.

I wish I could get "to" some of you guys. I could teach you more in 20 minutes about simple troubleshooting that I can in two days on here LOL
 
Haven't been on in a bit, but thanks for he help. I've pulled that wire as well as the others off each one by one and have gotten no where lol. It's just weird. Can the solenoid be stuck? The little be six arm? As soon as I touch the positive cable to the battery terminal the starter stars and spins. I didn't think these were that loud lol. But it spins until I disconnect the positive cable.
 
starter solenoid is stuck on. big wire feeds the spinny part, small wire tells it when to spin..
hit solenoid with a hammer or replace, disassemble and clean...
or your key switch is broke engaging start solenoid...

pull the small red wire that attaches to the starter and turn key on. we know your starter is good so that leaves two options, key or solenoid.
 
Last edited:
Cope said:
starter solenoid is stuck on. big wire feeds the spinny part, small wire tells it when to spin..
hit solenoid with a hammer or replace, disassemble and clean...
or your key switch is broke engaging start solenoid...

pull the small red wire that attaches to the starter and turn key on. we know your starter is good so that leaves two options, key or solenoid.
Click to expand...

I might have wiring issues. I put in a temporary ignition. And changed the starter relay. Now I only get the starter to clunk. Doesn't spin just clunks now. I have the starter out now, what am I looking at inside of it that is stuck?
 
7duce swinger said:
I might have wiring issues. I put in a temporary ignition. And changed the starter relay. Now I only get the starter to clunk. Doesn't spin just clunks now. I have the starter out now, what am I looking at inside of it that is stuck?
Click to expand...


Doesn't spin anymore with just touching the positive cable. Just get a clunk and I can see its shooting the gear out to flywheel but it's not spinning the motor.
 
Take the starter solenoid off the starter itself and either take it apart and if you can there is a copper disk on a plunger that is probably pitted with electrical arcs. If you cannot get it open jump the starter big post with a jumper cable and if it spins change the solenoid out.
 
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