Some friends and I have been talking about titles on cars would have a place on the paper work to check off if it was a rebody or not. What does rebody mean?
Title ?
- Thread starter Old Tired Rebel
- Start date
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dustinmoran91
Well-Known Member
Maybe like a remade body. Like how they reproduce the camaro and chllenger bodies now. Last i heard you had to have a vin number from a real one to title it but thats been severl years and probably changed since then
Bulldozer
free ice cream sandwiches
my titles dont have anything of the sort regarding a "re-body" checkbox. my understanding of the term rebody (on a mopar) is a dash containing a "good" VIN tag put into another "clean" car.
Legally,(in Cali anyway.) A re-body calls for an existing collision /body shop,to swap bodies legally,under a owner registered VIN.Anything else,falls in grey area.Carroll Shelby,and Boyd Coddington got popped for this.Be careful.
)
)
I don't plan on doing this. But it came up as a topic. My 2 cents it was illegal
Bulldozer
free ice cream sandwiches
if one were to replace every piece of metal of a car from other cars or even one car, the only piece left that would be original would be the dash. even then ,some take the VIN tag off. if it is illegal, then why are original dash VIN tag rivets legal. i am by no means suggesting its ok without telling someone. every single day people are doing that very thing with rusted out hulks that are beyond saving, but have a clear tag and title. if you own both cars, or all 10 the parts came off , then what? whats the correct way to do it?
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
Well it IS illegal except under certain CONTROLLED conditions. MY definition of a "rebody" is to make something it's not, IE ending up with a hemi/ sixpack VIN when the original car was ?? a 318 Belvedere
Some light reading:
http://www.hamtramck-historical.com/VINfraud/VINfraud.shtml
Federal law:
http://www.hamtramck-historical.com/VINfraud/VINfraudFed.shtml
=======================================================================
"
Some light reading:
http://www.hamtramck-historical.com/VINfraud/VINfraud.shtml
Federal law:
http://www.hamtramck-historical.com/VINfraud/VINfraudFed.shtml
=======================================================================
"
From the U.S. Code Online via GPO Access
[wais.access.gpo.gov]
[Laws in effect as of January 20, 2004]
[Document not affected by Public Laws enacted between
January 20, 2004 and December 23, 2004]
[CITE: 18USC511]
TITLE 18--CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I--CRIMES
CHAPTER 25--COUNTERFEITING AND FORGERY
Sec. 511. Altering or removing motor vehicle identification
numbers
(a) A person who--
(1) knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an
identification number for a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part; or
(2) with intent to further the theft of a motor vehicle,
knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or
device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle
Theft Prevention Act,
shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years, or
both.
(b)(1) Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a removal,
obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person specified in
paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person knows that the
vehicle or part involved is stolen).
(2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection
are--
(A) a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle
demolisher who complies with applicable State law with respect to
such vehicle or part;
(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal,
obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for
the repair;
(C) a person who restores or replaces an identification number
for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law;
and
(D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a
decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor
Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner of the
motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate, tamper with
or alter the decal or device by--
(i) the owner or his authorized agent;
(ii) applicable State or local law; or
(iii) regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to
implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act.
(c) As used in this section, the term--
(1) ``identification number'' means a number or symbol that is
inscribed or affixed for purposes of identification under chapter
301 and part C of subtitle VI of title 49;
(2) ``motor vehicle'' has the meaning given that term in section
32101 of title 49;
(3) ``motor vehicle demolisher'' means a person, including any
motor vehicle dismantler or motor vehicle recycler, who is engaged
in the business of reducing motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts to
metallic scrap that is unsuitable for use as either a motor vehicle
or a motor vehicle part;
(4) ``motor vehicle scrap processor'' means a person--
(A) who is engaged in the business of purchasing motor
vehicles or motor vehicle parts for reduction to metallic scrap
for recycling;
(B) who, from a fixed location, uses machinery to process
metallic scrap into prepared grades; and
(C) whose principal product is metallic scrap for recycling;
but such term does not include any activity of any such person
relating to the recycling of a motor vehicle or a motor vehicle part
as a used motor vehicle or a used motor vehicle part.
(d) For purposes of subsection (a) of this section, the term
``tampers with'' includes covering a program decal or device affixed to
a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act for
the purpose of obstructing its visibility.
(Added Pub. L. 98-547, title II, Sec. 201(a), Oct. 25, 1984, 98 Stat.
2768; amended Pub. L. 103-272, Sec. 5(e)(3), July 5, 1994, 108 Stat.
1373; Pub. L. 103-322, title XXII, Sec. 220003(a)-(c), Sept. 13, 1994,
108 Stat. 2076, 2077; Pub. L. 104-294, title VI, Sec. 604(b)(8), Oct.
11, 1996, 110 Stat. 3507.)
References in Text
The Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, referred to in subsecs.
(a)(2), (b)(2)(D), and (d), is title XXII of Pub. L. 103-322, Sept. 13,
1994, 108 Stat. 2074, which enacted section 511A of this title and
section 14171 of Title 42, The Public Health and Welfare, amended this
section, and enacted provisions set out as a note under section 13701 of
Title 42. For complete classification of this Act to the Code, see Short
Title note set out under section 13701 of Title 42 and Tables.
Codification
Another section 511 was renumbered section 513 of this title.
Amendments
1996--Subsec. (b)(2)(D). Pub. L. 104-294 realigned margins.
1994--Subsec. (a). Pub. L. 103-322, Sec. 220003(a), amended subsec.
(a) generally. Prior to amendment, subsec. (a) read as follows:
``Whoever knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an
identification number for a motor vehicle, or motor vehicle part, shall
be fined not more than $10,000 or imprisoned not more than five years,
or both.''
Subsec. (b)(2)(D). Pub. L. 103-322, Sec. 220003(b), added subpar.
(D).
Subsec. (c)(1). Pub. L. 103-272, Sec. 5(e)(3)(A), substituted
``chapter 301 and part C of subtitle VI of title 49'' for ``the National
Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act of 1966, or the Motor Vehicle
Information and Cost Savings Act''.
Subsec. (c)(2). Pub. L. 103-272, Sec. 5(e)(3)(B), substituted
``section 32101 of title 49'' for ``section 2 of the Motor Vehicle
Information and Cost Savings Act''.
Subsec. (d). Pub. L. 103-322, Sec. 220003(c), added subsec. (d).
Effective Date of 1996 Amendment
Amendment by Pub. L. 104-294 effective Sept. 13, 1994, see section
604(d) of Pub. L. 104-294, set out as a note under section 13 of this
title."
[wais.access.gpo.gov]
[Laws in effect as of January 20, 2004]
[Document not affected by Public Laws enacted between
January 20, 2004 and December 23, 2004]
[CITE: 18USC511]
TITLE 18--CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I--CRIMES
CHAPTER 25--COUNTERFEITING AND FORGERY
Sec. 511. Altering or removing motor vehicle identification
numbers
(a) A person who--
(1) knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an
identification number for a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part; or
(2) with intent to further the theft of a motor vehicle,
knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or
device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle
Theft Prevention Act,
shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years, or
both.
(b)(1) Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a removal,
obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person specified in
paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person knows that the
vehicle or part involved is stolen).
(2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection
are--
(A) a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle
demolisher who complies with applicable State law with respect to
such vehicle or part;
(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal,
obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for
the repair;
(C) a person who restores or replaces an identification number
for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law;
and
(D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a
decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor
Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner of the
motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate, tamper with
or alter the decal or device by--
(i) the owner or his authorized agent;
(ii) applicable State or local law; or
(iii) regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to
implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act.
(c) As used in this section, the term--
(1) ``identification number'' means a number or symbol that is
inscribed or affixed for purposes of identification under chapter
301 and part C of subtitle VI of title 49;
(2) ``motor vehicle'' has the meaning given that term in section
32101 of title 49;
(3) ``motor vehicle demolisher'' means a person, including any
motor vehicle dismantler or motor vehicle recycler, who is engaged
in the business of reducing motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts to
metallic scrap that is unsuitable for use as either a motor vehicle
or a motor vehicle part;
(4) ``motor vehicle scrap processor'' means a person--
(A) who is engaged in the business of purchasing motor
vehicles or motor vehicle parts for reduction to metallic scrap
for recycling;
(B) who, from a fixed location, uses machinery to process
metallic scrap into prepared grades; and
(C) whose principal product is metallic scrap for recycling;
but such term does not include any activity of any such person
relating to the recycling of a motor vehicle or a motor vehicle part
as a used motor vehicle or a used motor vehicle part.
(d) For purposes of subsection (a) of this section, the term
``tampers with'' includes covering a program decal or device affixed to
a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act for
the purpose of obstructing its visibility.
(Added Pub. L. 98-547, title II, Sec. 201(a), Oct. 25, 1984, 98 Stat.
2768; amended Pub. L. 103-272, Sec. 5(e)(3), July 5, 1994, 108 Stat.
1373; Pub. L. 103-322, title XXII, Sec. 220003(a)-(c), Sept. 13, 1994,
108 Stat. 2076, 2077; Pub. L. 104-294, title VI, Sec. 604(b)(8), Oct.
11, 1996, 110 Stat. 3507.)
References in Text
The Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, referred to in subsecs.
(a)(2), (b)(2)(D), and (d), is title XXII of Pub. L. 103-322, Sept. 13,
1994, 108 Stat. 2074, which enacted section 511A of this title and
section 14171 of Title 42, The Public Health and Welfare, amended this
section, and enacted provisions set out as a note under section 13701 of
Title 42. For complete classification of this Act to the Code, see Short
Title note set out under section 13701 of Title 42 and Tables.
Codification
Another section 511 was renumbered section 513 of this title.
Amendments
1996--Subsec. (b)(2)(D). Pub. L. 104-294 realigned margins.
1994--Subsec. (a). Pub. L. 103-322, Sec. 220003(a), amended subsec.
(a) generally. Prior to amendment, subsec. (a) read as follows:
``Whoever knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an
identification number for a motor vehicle, or motor vehicle part, shall
be fined not more than $10,000 or imprisoned not more than five years,
or both.''
Subsec. (b)(2)(D). Pub. L. 103-322, Sec. 220003(b), added subpar.
(D).
Subsec. (c)(1). Pub. L. 103-272, Sec. 5(e)(3)(A), substituted
``chapter 301 and part C of subtitle VI of title 49'' for ``the National
Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act of 1966, or the Motor Vehicle
Information and Cost Savings Act''.
Subsec. (c)(2). Pub. L. 103-272, Sec. 5(e)(3)(B), substituted
``section 32101 of title 49'' for ``section 2 of the Motor Vehicle
Information and Cost Savings Act''.
Subsec. (d). Pub. L. 103-322, Sec. 220003(c), added subsec. (d).
Effective Date of 1996 Amendment
Amendment by Pub. L. 104-294 effective Sept. 13, 1994, see section
604(d) of Pub. L. 104-294, set out as a note under section 13 of this
title."
This topic is just about as old as the automobile industry.In Missouri if you use a fender/hood/seat/engine etc from a salvaged vehicle to reconstruct another you must hold a photocopy of the original title of the salvaged parts vehicle.Is this law used? Only in the cases of stolen property.Illegal to rebody-yes,how many rebodies are on the road? I don't know.The point is,if you have used parts from another vehicle on your car and you don't hold a photocopy of the original title from the donor vehicle you are just as illegal.Remember when you point a finger at others-lots of fingers are pointing at you.
How many old Mopars out there got an Engine out of a wreck and have no info at all where it came from...I would think very tuff to enforce that law in the 60's and 70's or even 80's?
Benji
Active Member
So a simple reading of post # 9 above shows that if you intend "to further the theft of a motor vehicle" you are breaking the law and if caught you will be fined or imprisoned under this law, but "if that person [who wants to remove, obliterate, tamper with or alter the decal or device] is the owner of the motor vehicle" he can legally do it.
Obviously the intent of the law is to prevent any theft of an automobile but not prevent a law abiding citizen who legally owns a motor vehicle from restoring his damaged automobile, if "the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair."
For example a car is T boned at the area of the left cowl crushing the left windshield pillar, upper left cowl, left front fender and the dash board which contains the VIN number. The above law implies that he can legally remove the VIN plate and install it on the new dash pad because he legally owns the vehicle, is not stealing it, and he needs to do it to repair the vehicle. He can also transfer this authority to "his authorized agent." An authorized agent could be an automobile body shop or automotive restoration facility.
Scenerio # 1. You have a 1969 Dodge Charger with a 426 hemi engine that is a total rust bucket, but after referring to an AMD catalog you feel the car can be repaired if you use their 25 aftermarket body panels that were stamped in China and also a used cowl from the wrecking yard. Is this a 1969 Dodge Charger manufactured by Chrysler Corporation or a hand built 1969 Dodge Charger built by a body shop that still has four original body panels that came from Detroit, one of which is not even original to that particular car but it is a Chrysler built part.
Scenerio # 2 Same car as above but you want to restore it with "real" 1969 Chrysler Corporation steel so you find a 1969 Dodge Charger with a 318 V8 that is in pristine condition. You buy it and you swap the engine, transmission, differential, fender tag, VIN tag, from the hemi powered car, into the 318 car. You stamp the radiator support and the left rain gutter with the correct numbers from the hemi powered car to complete the transformation of the 318 car. You then buy the two reinforcement panels from AMD that are needed to box in the rear spring areas and you have the car stripped of its paint, the dents are fixed and the car is painted with the color stamped on the fender tag. Is this a real 1969 Dodge Charger?
Are both cars fakes? Is one real and the other a fake? Which one?
Benji
Obviously the intent of the law is to prevent any theft of an automobile but not prevent a law abiding citizen who legally owns a motor vehicle from restoring his damaged automobile, if "the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair."
For example a car is T boned at the area of the left cowl crushing the left windshield pillar, upper left cowl, left front fender and the dash board which contains the VIN number. The above law implies that he can legally remove the VIN plate and install it on the new dash pad because he legally owns the vehicle, is not stealing it, and he needs to do it to repair the vehicle. He can also transfer this authority to "his authorized agent." An authorized agent could be an automobile body shop or automotive restoration facility.
Scenerio # 1. You have a 1969 Dodge Charger with a 426 hemi engine that is a total rust bucket, but after referring to an AMD catalog you feel the car can be repaired if you use their 25 aftermarket body panels that were stamped in China and also a used cowl from the wrecking yard. Is this a 1969 Dodge Charger manufactured by Chrysler Corporation or a hand built 1969 Dodge Charger built by a body shop that still has four original body panels that came from Detroit, one of which is not even original to that particular car but it is a Chrysler built part.
Scenerio # 2 Same car as above but you want to restore it with "real" 1969 Chrysler Corporation steel so you find a 1969 Dodge Charger with a 318 V8 that is in pristine condition. You buy it and you swap the engine, transmission, differential, fender tag, VIN tag, from the hemi powered car, into the 318 car. You stamp the radiator support and the left rain gutter with the correct numbers from the hemi powered car to complete the transformation of the 318 car. You then buy the two reinforcement panels from AMD that are needed to box in the rear spring areas and you have the car stripped of its paint, the dents are fixed and the car is painted with the color stamped on the fender tag. Is this a real 1969 Dodge Charger?
Are both cars fakes? Is one real and the other a fake? Which one?
Benji
Thanks this is exactly what I am talking about. How many times have we seen this on TV from car shows that do this like Hot Rod TV that did a Hemi Charger and a 68 or 69 Dart GT both also featured in their magazine. Also Graveyard Carz that did a Hemi Cuda that was beyond saving and rebuilt or rebodied as title work go.
va58
Restoration Jedi
[
Scenerio # 1. You have a 1969 Dodge Charger with a 426 hemi engine that is a total rust bucket, but after referring to an AMD catalog you feel the car can be repaired if you use their 25 aftermarket body panels that were stamped in China and also a used cowl from the wrecking yard. Is this a 1969 Dodge Charger manufactured by Chrysler Corporation or a hand built 1969 Dodge Charger built by a body shop that still has four original body panels that came from Detroit, one of which is not even original to that particular car but it is a Chrysler built part.
Scenerio # 2 Same car as above but you want to restore it with "real" 1969 Chrysler Corporation steel so you find a 1969 Dodge Charger with a 318 V8 that is in pristine condition. You buy it and you swap the engine, transmission, differential, fender tag, VIN tag, from the hemi powered car, into the 318 car. You stamp the radiator support and the left rain gutter with the correct numbers from the hemi powered car to complete the transformation of the 318 car. You then buy the two reinforcement panels from AMD that are needed to box in the rear spring areas and you have the car stripped of its paint, the dents are fixed and the car is painted with the color stamped on the fender tag. Is this a real 1969 Dodge Charger?
Are both cars fakes? Is one real and the other a fake? Which one?
Benji[/QUOTE]
Number 1 is a real car. It was built that way at the factory. Number 2 is a fake, always will be a fake. If the car is too far gone to restore it, removing the vin and putting it onto a another body is wrong for this hobby.I won't even talk about whats legal. Now if you don't agreed with me that's cool, but ponder this. You go to big time auction and drop 75k on the dream car you always wanted.
a few months later you find out somehow that this is not a "AAR Cuda", but was a 6 cyl. car. Paperwork with car,fender tag and Vin match AAR.
Are you like" That's Cool, still an AAR.....
Scenerio # 1. You have a 1969 Dodge Charger with a 426 hemi engine that is a total rust bucket, but after referring to an AMD catalog you feel the car can be repaired if you use their 25 aftermarket body panels that were stamped in China and also a used cowl from the wrecking yard. Is this a 1969 Dodge Charger manufactured by Chrysler Corporation or a hand built 1969 Dodge Charger built by a body shop that still has four original body panels that came from Detroit, one of which is not even original to that particular car but it is a Chrysler built part.
Scenerio # 2 Same car as above but you want to restore it with "real" 1969 Chrysler Corporation steel so you find a 1969 Dodge Charger with a 318 V8 that is in pristine condition. You buy it and you swap the engine, transmission, differential, fender tag, VIN tag, from the hemi powered car, into the 318 car. You stamp the radiator support and the left rain gutter with the correct numbers from the hemi powered car to complete the transformation of the 318 car. You then buy the two reinforcement panels from AMD that are needed to box in the rear spring areas and you have the car stripped of its paint, the dents are fixed and the car is painted with the color stamped on the fender tag. Is this a real 1969 Dodge Charger?
Are both cars fakes? Is one real and the other a fake? Which one?
Benji[/QUOTE]
Number 1 is a real car. It was built that way at the factory. Number 2 is a fake, always will be a fake. If the car is too far gone to restore it, removing the vin and putting it onto a another body is wrong for this hobby.I won't even talk about whats legal. Now if you don't agreed with me that's cool, but ponder this. You go to big time auction and drop 75k on the dream car you always wanted.
a few months later you find out somehow that this is not a "AAR Cuda", but was a 6 cyl. car. Paperwork with car,fender tag and Vin match AAR.
Are you like" That's Cool, still an AAR.....
Number 1 is a real car. It was built that way at the factory. Number 2 is a fake, always will be a fake. If the car is too far gone to restore it, removing the vin and putting it onto a another body is wrong for this hobby.I won't even talk about whats legal. Now if you don't agreed with me that's cool, but ponder this. You go to big time auction and drop 75k on the dream car you always wanted.
a few months later you find out somehow that this is not a "AAR Cuda", but was a 6 cyl. car. Paperwork with car,fender tag and Vin match AAR.
Are you like" That's Cool, still an AAR.....[/QUOTE]
This happened at Barret-Jackson a few years ago correct? But with reality TV shows and greed being is where it's at the lines have become greatly blurred compared to 20-25 years ago.
Bulldozer
free ice cream sandwiches
i agree, but the deal is that 99% of these cars are so well done , you cant and wont ever be able to tell the difference. they are cutting out the sequence numbers and welding them in place of the old ones to the point its impossible to tell. its so easy to do with these cars. there is no carfax on them or any other real way to prove otherwise other than sheer luck that someone knows differently.
if you came across an A12 or a hemicuda that was rusted beyond belief that had the dash still in it and clear paperwork for free, are you going to pass it up or are you going to drag it home only to replace every single part of it except for the dash ? by the time its ready for paint, you would have replaced 99% of what was there to begin with.
inkjunkie
Well-Known Member
Because s@#t happens. When my friend Jim went to cut my dash for the cage he removed the vin tag because it looked like it was going to be right where he had to cut. Ended up being safe by an 1/8".....of course the one replacement rivet was not done correctly and not holding anything.....I have a "collector" friend, more like hoarder that bought an original z-28 that had been shoddily converted to a race car decades ago. He removed the vin's from the car and listed them on ebay......think his brother ended up getting busted for it as last registered owner of the car was his brother and the ebay account was his also.....
Ink are you saying if you take a vin off to do work on your car and replace it poorly you can still get busted for it?
inkjunkie
Well-Known Member
Cliff, sorry for misleading you. I don't think there will be an issue in my case. I do plan on replacing the loose rivet at some point. The vin on my dash is the original one to the car, matches the title. The guy that got busted was selling the tags/vinned parts off of a cr on EBay to someone that was going to attach them to what was NOT an original z28, in essence a "rebody". Just to throw something else out there, my chopper has a state assigned vin. I bought it as a "bike in a box". Bought the documentation, think they were called MCO'S, down to dmv and they issued me a vin number. Every state will be different obviously on this stuff. In AZ you could apply for an abandoned vehicle title if someone left a vehicle on your property. Up here in Washington, from what I have been told, there is no such thing. My neighbor was storing some cars for a few different people. These people are either dead or in jail now. These folks families had no idea where the titles were. Jim called dmv and was told that he needed to contact the State Patrol. They will come out and get the vins and spend 30 days looking for the last registered owner. If not found, the State Patrol will then dispatch a wrecker and remove the vehicle, sending it to a scrap yard. In AZ if this happened, dmv would spend a month or so looking for the last registered owner. If they could not be located and the vin was not reported as stolen dmv would then issue you an abandoned vehicle title. If at that point the previous owner were to reappear he has no rights to the vehicle, as I understand it....
va58
Restoration Jedi
i agree, but the deal is that 99% of these cars are so well done , you cant and wont ever be able to tell the difference. they are cutting out the sequence numbers and welding them in place of the old ones to the point its impossible to tell. its so easy to do with these cars. there is no carfax on them or any other real way to prove otherwise other than sheer luck that someone knows differently.
if you came across an A12 or a hemicuda that was rusted beyond belief that had the dash still in it and clear paperwork for free, are you going to pass it up or are you going to drag it home only to replace every single part of it except for the dash ? by the time its ready for paint, you would have replaced 99% of what was there to begin with.
This has happen to me around 1990. AAR Cuda in Nebraska, missing engine and trans and rusted to the ground. Fender tag, Vin and the guy held the title to the car. It never would have been a matching number car, but if you wanted to you could have got the car and found a 70 body without to much looking. After all its was 1990 and cars were still around if you looked. I passed. It was wrong then and it is still wrong.
I will agree that if you want to make a fake and you have more knowledge than me about the car you are making, then me and lots of other people would not know if the car is real or not. this discussion is just what has helped make the Corvette hobby somewhat jack-up. More 427/435 horse vette's now that Chevy built in 67.
also paperwork plays a big part of the deal. If you can trace the car back through the owners, that will help. Most people will not go through the trouble to fake a car that they can't make big money on. Knowledge is power in this and many other hobbies. I know this sounds very opinionated, but it is the way I see it....
if you came across an A12 or a hemicuda that was rusted beyond belief that had the dash still in it and clear paperwork for free, are you going to pass it up or are you going to drag it home only to replace every single part of it except for the dash ? by the time its ready for paint, you would have replaced 99% of what was there to begin with.
This has happen to me around 1990. AAR Cuda in Nebraska, missing engine and trans and rusted to the ground. Fender tag, Vin and the guy held the title to the car. It never would have been a matching number car, but if you wanted to you could have got the car and found a 70 body without to much looking. After all its was 1990 and cars were still around if you looked. I passed. It was wrong then and it is still wrong.
I will agree that if you want to make a fake and you have more knowledge than me about the car you are making, then me and lots of other people would not know if the car is real or not. this discussion is just what has helped make the Corvette hobby somewhat jack-up. More 427/435 horse vette's now that Chevy built in 67.
also paperwork plays a big part of the deal. If you can trace the car back through the owners, that will help. Most people will not go through the trouble to fake a car that they can't make big money on. Knowledge is power in this and many other hobbies. I know this sounds very opinionated, but it is the way I see it....
Thanks for explaining that ink. But I also know in Oklahoma you can't get a title for a car that has a bill of sale only or is a abandoned car.
inkjunkie
Well-Known Member
Have a friend that worked in a shop for years. When we were walking around MATS this year we walked by a 70, I think it was, convertible Hemi Cuda. Car was a former SS record holder in whatever class it was raced in . My buddy was telling me that when he tore into the car it was so twisted up from being a racer the rear half was beyond being salvaged. He proceeded to cut the car in two and replaced the rear half of it with a car that he had in his yard that he was going to build "someday". He had told me that there were very few cars that he had touched over the years that were "original". He told me that in the 80's-early 90's the practice of piecing a muscle car together was pretty common in every shop he was associated with. Glad I am not a #'s guy. /6, 3 on the tree was a perfect starting point for me. Car would have taken 4x5 times it's value to restore it. That is why when I was getting grief over a gm trans I just could do nothing but laugh. Someone told me they thought I was one of the biggest pr*&k's on the planet for cutting up the floor the way I did. Oh well.......
I think your car came out great no matter what parts you used it is your car to do with as you please. But I didn't know body shops doing this was common practice back then. Being that was a controlled environment was it legal?
inkjunkie
Well-Known Member
Legal? Damn good question. I think everyone has there own opinion. I don't look it at as legal/illegal but more of a question of morals. And when it comes to money, which is what some of these cars and there owners are about morals are often cast aside. Same friend that was trying to sell the Z28 tags was trying to pass off a Cutlass as numbers matching bb/stick shift car. Don't remember all the details but when he was selling it he had a guy on the hook for it. Guy was going over the car very carefully. Some how he traced the car back to ones of it's previous owners who told him that it was not what it appeared to be, that while it did have all the correct parts to what the vin claimed it to be it was because he had taken all of the parts from an original bb/stick car and moved them to a 350/auto car. When the previous owner had sold the car he claims he never tried to pass it off as something it was not, going as far as having a copy of one of the magazines it was listed in. Like I said earlier, glad I am not a numbers guy.
So this is a subject that has a big grey area when it comes to what is legal. To what is obviously illegal.
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