Too much engine work at once

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stumblinhorse

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So since my engine is pretty much apart, but still installed, heads off getting redone, etc. I am on the fence about doing a new cam at the same time. My questions is am I doing too much stuff at once? Or shouldn't do something at the same time as the others. I won't have it all back together for about 4 weeks for the "planned" items, waiting on headers.

Items that are planned:
Doing valve job, therefore new head gasket etc that go along with that.
Radiator rodded and refinished.
Doing headers and 2.5 exhaust.
Have a leaky oil pan so I am doing pan gasket and since that will be off...
I am doing new HV oil Pump. While that is off...
I am doing Rear Main seal...

Items I am thinking about doing:
With the pan off I am on the fence with doing timing set...
And then I might as well do a new Voodoo 701 cam.

So too much? Block and pistons look good. 105k on the engine.

Thanks for the help
 
Ask yourself what would 'feel' worse: Regret of having things done, or not having things done to the engine, right when it was apart?
 
Do it while it's apart. That way you don't have to take it half way apart again to do the cam next winter. Besides, the radiator is already out of the way....
 
definitely true about the radiator! I have had to do the radiator 3 times in the last 6 months! Anitfreeze is a pain to get rid of.

So everyone thinks I can do all that stuff and bolt is all up and get it to start quick enough to not wipe out a lobe in the process of it trying to start? New oil pump and new cam at the same time?
 
I wouldn't, cam is one of the biggest power upgrades besides heads.
 
If a low compression stock short-block, and in a chassis under 3500pounds, and a streeter; then any performance cam will want one of;
A) more compression, or
B) a higher stall and
C) if a 318, probably a lot more gear,but
D) if a 360, probably 3.23s to 3.55s depending on the trans , but
E) if a heavy beast, or for towing a trailer,forget the teener go straight to a 360, but
F) If a stick, you can just rev it past the doughy part on take off, and live with the slug it will be when stuck in the doughy part,in traffic.
G) if going racing, I can't say.
H) at 105,000 MILES, the timing chain on anything but a 340 s about to let go

If you don't know, performance cams don't make power. Cams move the Operating Rpm up higher, and the new operating rpm makes the power. But in the moving of the operating rpm, the cam always trades away low rpm to get the higher rpm....... so the bottom end performance of a low-compression engine , gets even lower performance. This is not real exciting to your 1975 Swinger 318 with it's non-LSD 2.76 hiway gears, and it's 1850rpm stall torque convertor. So now you have the added expense of those handicaps to deal with.
The 360 was born with 13% more cubes, so the low-rpm performance doesn't fall away quite as fast, but it's still the same story.And the 360 starts off with a 252 cam versus the 240 in the teener.
So long story short, the best cam for a low-compression318/360, IMO, is already in it. If you up-cam your streeter,and you don't bring the compression along with it.......it's gonna cost you a lot more than the price of the cam-kit. It's gonna cost you low-rpm/low-speed performance, up to say 3000rpm or up to 35 mph with 2.76 gears, and it will suck gas.
Now heads, on the other hand.......

BTW
Headers are never a bad idea.......................but on a stock combo won't count for much, unless what you're taking off is really really really,restrictive.
Now why do I say that? Well firstly, and engine is an air pump. If it only can process 200 cfm, then any old exhaust is sufficient. And secondly, if it doesn't process that 200 cfm until 3500 rpm, a reasonable number for a 318, This may not occur until 35/40 mph with the 2.76 gears that 318 cars typically have.. And after 3500 rpm the efficiency of that engine is falling anyway, so now again, the stock exhaust, if not too restrictive, is still able to pass the gas. If anything convert to dual exhaust and call it done.
But say you put a 4bbl on that otherwise stock engine. Guess what, it still may not pull more than 200 cfm thru it until 3500 rpm, so there you are in the same pickle.
There's only one way to make more power, and that is to burn more fuel, and to burn more fuel, you have to process more oxygen. and to do that you have four choices; 1) more cubes, and 2) more efficiency, and 3) more rpm, and 4) supercharging.
So with a given engine size, if the exhaust will only process 200 cfm, then you can put the biggest carb ever, on the intake, and it will still only process 200 cfm. Or if the carb will only process 200 cfm , headers will not make it flow any more. And if the cam in there says here your proud airflow stops,at 200, then there is nothing that you can bolt onto that engine,(save for a supercharger) to make it flow any more.
So as you can see, it's all in the combo. And yes a 4bbl and dual exhaust might free up a couple of hp..... but at what rpm?, and more importantly, at what roadspeed?
The absolute quickest and most noticeable increase in performance, is with a higher stall TC, and the second is lotsa more gear.
Some of the most fun I have had with my Barracuda, and a1973 stock low-compression 318, was with a 2800TC and a 9.73 starter gear. This was 3.55s and a 2.74 low gear-set in the A998. The equivalent rear for a regular A904 is 3.91s. The 4bbl and headers/dual exhaust was just icing.
Happy HotRodding
 
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We've been here before! This is a 4 sp 3.55 8 3/4" rearend.

I got rid of the anti-freeze the first time for the flush for years of use, the second was to replace the new rad hoses that had wire inside that rusted like crazy in about 1 month. The last one was when I pulled the heads and it ended up with a ton of oil in it, because I can't get the drains out of the block and was afraid to break the bolts!

I wouldn't, cam is one of the biggest power upgrades besides heads.

I don't follow, what wouldn't you do? You wouldn't do the cam at the same time as all the other stuff?
 
If it freaks you out to do it then don't.:D
I would do it all at once in a heartbeat.
 
I was in the same boat (heads coming off for porting), plus the rear main seal was suspect. I just went ahead and pulled it, and the transmission. Everything you are considering is a lot easier when the engine can be upside down instead of you.
 
If it freaks you out to do it then don't.:D
I would do it all at once in a heartbeat.

It doesn't freak me out. I just don't want to have to buy a new Cam and lifter kit if I can't get it started and wipe a lobe. You do enough searching on this site and you think that happens most of the time!

So sounds like a plan.
 
It doesn't freak me out. I just don't want to have to buy a new Cam and lifter kit if I can't get it started and wipe a lobe. You do enough searching on this site and you think that happens most of the time!

So sounds like a plan.

So it doesn't matter when you do it. :D
Might as well while you are already part way there.
Really the only time people wipe cams is using too much spring during the break in.
If the springs are no more than around 300lb or so open, then you really don't have much to worry about.
 
So it doesn't matter when you do it. :D
Might as well while you are already part way there.
Really the only time people wipe cams is using too much spring during the break in.
If the springs are no more than around 300lb or so open, then you really don't have much to worry about.

That makes me feel better. I just got the call that my heads are ready at the machine shop, so I will ask about fully lifted pressure. So new cam it is.
 
With; 3.55s, a 2.66 low, and 26.5 tires, the doughiness will have rolled off by about 26mph, unless you pick the 268/110cam, or if you have a 318, then you can expect the doughiness to last a bit longer.

Here's a stock 318, ICA of 48*
Static compression ratio of 8.0:1.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 7.10:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 136.77 PSI.
V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is 114.............................................. 114 ..

And here it is with a 268 cam, ICA of 60*
Static compression ratio of 8.0:1.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 6.62:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 124.66 PSI.
V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is 96.................................................. 96 ..
Notice the drop in cylinder pressure from 137 to 125. That's 9% or about the equivalent of 1 rear gear size. So you will need 3.87s to have the same low-rpm/ low-speed performance, after the cam as before.

But here is the same 268/110 cam now at 10/1
Static compression ratio of 10:1.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 8.22:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 165.61 PSI.
V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is 127............................................... 127 ..

Notice the pressure is now up to 166, or plus 21% over stock, and plus 32% over the doughy 8:1/268cam . What this means to you is that the hi-compression engine will need just 2.94s to be on a par with the doughy engine and 3.87s When operating in the low-rpm,low-speed mode, that rolls off at about 3000/3500
Well, it doesn't mean that exactly, but that's the best way IMO to illustrate this.

What it really means is, that with the same 3.55s;
the 10:1-268* will go like a raped ape, and
the 8:1-stocker you know what that one does, and
the 8:1-268* will be less powerful in the doughy zone, and won't wake up until between 3000/3500 as it climbs towards the torque peak.
Now,in a stick-car, the engine is married to the rear gear......so with the Lo-C-268 you will be stuck in doughy-land from idle to 25mph,any time the tires are NOT spinning, if they will even spin, then the power will come in, and if you keep the Rs up it will be so-so/pretty good. But, whenever you are in second gear at low rpms, say below 30/35mph and you want to accelerate briskly, well you can't because you are in doughy-land. So you are forced to downshift. I tell you what, all this downshifting/upshifting gets old in a hurry. My solution for me was 3.91s........ or better,lol.Then you can just leave it in second from 30/35 to 60/65 mph. And the bonus is with a 10.40 starter gear, the teener stands a chance of spinning; I mean a VP of 96 is like getting down to slanty territory.
Anyway, I'm just trying to make you aware of the road you are taking, that I for one will never go down again.
And finally, the 268 is about the biggest cam a teener owner might install. There are several smaller cams to choose from, with less doughiness resulting.I just wanted to paint the ugliest picture I could, with the biggest shock-value.
From the 240 stocker to the 268 is about 4 cam sizes, so you have less radical choices.
And double-finally; consider the price difference from pulling the compression up, to installing 3.91s
If you have a 360, things are only slightly better, because of the inherent extra torque of the bigger engine,specifically the longer stroke. And again, I for one, will never travel down that low-compression up-cam road again.

Happy HotRodding
 
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It doesn't freak me out. I just don't want to have to buy a new Cam and lifter kit if I can't get it started and wipe a lobe. You do enough searching on this site and you think that happens most of the time!

So sounds like a plan.


The number 1 reason cams go flat is dicking around trying to get it started. I know guys who think cranking on it, jacking with the timing for 45 seconds or so is ok. It's not.

If you are using a fairly new lobe it needs to start like it was already tuned and you can hit the key and start it. If you can't set up your engine to start like that, get some help. Make sure you engine can run at essentially zero load without overheating. Having an engine running at a relatively fast idle for 25 minutes and have it get hot is just crazy.

I've never (nor will I ever) pull the inner springs out to break in a cam. If I need a cam that requires the innners removed, low ratio rockers and all that crap I use a roller cam. I run a Racer Brown lobe that is 280 advertised and 255 at .050 so it's a pretty fast lobe. In fact, I don't think you can use a Chevy lifter (.842 diameter) and I'm not sure you could slide by with a ford lifter (.875 diameter).

The point is with a little caution you can start all but the most aggressive SFT lobe.
 
If a low compression stock short-block, and in a chassis under 3500pounds, and a streeter; then any performance cam will want one of;
A) more compression, or
B) a higher stall and
C) if a 318, probably a lot more gear,but
D) if a 360, probably 3.23s to 3.55s depending on the trans , but
E) if a heavy beast, or for towing a trailer,forget the teener go straight to a 360, but
F) If a stick, you can just rev it past the doughy part on take off, and live with the slug it will be when stuck in the doughy part,in traffic.
G) if going racing, I can't say.
H) at 105,000 MILES, the timing chain on anything but a 340 s about to let go

If you don't know, performance cams don't make power. Cams move the Operating Rpm up higher, and the new operating rpm makes the power. But in the moving of the operating rpm, the cam always trades away low rpm to get the higher rpm....... so the bottom end performance of a low-compression engine , gets even lower performance. This is not real exciting to your 1975 Swinger 318 with it's non-LSD 2.76 hiway gears, and it's 1850rpm stall torque convertor. So now you have the added expense of those handicaps to deal with.
The 360 was born with 13% more cubes, so the low-rpm performance doesn't fall away quite as fast, but it's still the same story.And the 360 starts off with a 252 cam versus the 240 in the teener.
So long story short, the best cam for a low-compression318/360, IMO, is already in it. If you up-cam your streeter,and you don't bring the compression along with it.......it's gonna cost you a lot more than the price of the cam-kit. It's gonna cost you low-rpm/low-speed performance, up to say 3000rpm or up to 35 mph with 2.76 gears, and it will suck gas.
Now heads, on the other hand.......

BTW
Headers are never a bad idea.......................but on a stock combo won't count for much, unless what you're taking off is really really really,restrictive.
Now why do I say that? Well firstly, and engine is an air pump. If it only can process 200 cfm, then any old exhaust is sufficient. And secondly, if it doesn't process that 200 cfm until 3500 rpm, a reasonable number for a 318, This may not occur until 35/40 mph with the 2.76 gears that 318 cars typically have.. And after 3500 rpm the efficiency of that engine is falling anyway, so now again, the stock exhaust, if not too restrictive, is still able to pass the gas. If anything convert to dual exhaust and call it done.
But say you put a 4bbl on that otherwise stock engine. Guess what, it still may not pull more than 200 cfm thru it until 3500 rpm, so there you are in the same pickle.
There's only one way to make more power, and that is to burn more fuel, and to burn more fuel, you have to process more oxygen. and to do that you have four choices; 1) more cubes, and 2) more efficiency, and 3) more rpm, and 4) supercharging.
So with a given engine size, if the exhaust will only process 200 cfm, then you can put the biggest carb ever, on the intake, and it will still only process 200 cfm. Or if the carb will only process 200 cfm , headers will not make it flow any more. And if the cam in there says here your proud airflow stops,at 200, then there is nothing that you can bolt onto that engine,(save for a supercharger) to make it flow any more.
So as you can see, it's all in the combo. And yes a 4bbl and dual exhaust might free up a couple of hp..... but at what rpm?, and more importantly, at what roadspeed?
The absolute quickest and most noticeable increase in performance, is with a higher stall TC, and the second is lotsa more gear.
Some of the most fun I have had with my Barracuda, and a1973 stock low-compression 318, was with a 2800TC and a 9.73 starter gear. This was 3.55s and a 2.74 low gear-set in the A998. The equivalent rear for a regular A904 is 3.91s. The 4bbl and headers/dual exhaust was just icing.
Happy HotRodding

I agree and disagree at the same time here.

1st , yes compression is important but a lot of people are working with stock long and short blocks, kind of stuck with what you got. And a lot can be accomplished with less than ideal cr. If your rebuilding your engine then yes put the proper piston in for the cam you plan on running.

2nd, yes I agree gears are important, most seem to leave them as an afterthought.
And since most are gonma use 3.55 or even 3.23. The engine should be built around that.

3rd, yes larger cams heads carb exhaust etc.. move the powerband up the rpm scale.
While subtracting the under 2500 rpm power which a very important rpm band for street engines. But doesn't mean theres no room for larger than stock cams.

Yes when you go with incress airflow especially with loss of low rpm velocity. Bottom end will suffer. A certain amount of airflow is gonna take a certain displacement to effectively use it. This is where I like to think of an engine in static cid and dynamic cid. Static is obviously what we normally consider displacement. Dynamic is the engine size at rpm. And to find that out is easy. The formula people think is the carb size formula is actually the dynamic cid formula. It your engine size at rpm converted from cubic inches to cubic feet per minute. Static cid x rpm / 3456 = Dynamic cid. A 318 and 360 are both 500 cfm at 5433 rpm and 4800 rpm respectively.

For some reason people associate airflow with hp and velocity with torque. But since hp is actually torque over time. Airflow actually gives you more torque and rpm capabilities. Engines that move serious amount of air have more torque per cid than those that don't.

As for low end power there is room to grow on a stock low powered engine before you move the lower part of the powerband up.
Which you"ll gain more overall low end torque and extend the powerband on top (hp everywhere). The trick is where to draw the line.

4th, and most importantly all he asked if he should install a mild cam and the answer is an easy yes, yes he should.
 
This is the lunati:
  • Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 256/262
  • Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 213/220
  • Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .454/.475
  • LSA/ICL: 112/108
  • Valve Lash (Int/Exh): Hyd/Hyd
  • RPM Range: 1000-5500
Pretty mellow cam. The engine is a 69 with advertised comp in the day of 9.2:1.

So no, I know I cannot get it to fire right over like it was tuned already. When I did the new 4 barrel carb and intake it took about 10 seconds to fire and timing was off by 20 degrees or so. If it has to be key on and start and up to 2500 rpm in a few seconds, no way can I do that.
 
And the heads were just decked, all new valves and springs installed, 3 angle valve job. So compression should be pretty good.
 
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This is the lunati:
  • Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 256/262
  • Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 213/220
  • Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .454/.475
  • LSA/ICL: 112/108
  • Valve Lash (Int/Exh): Hyd/Hyd
  • RPM Range: 1000-5500
Pretty mellow cam. The engine is a 69 with advertised comp in the day of 9.2:1.

So no, I know I cannot get it to fire right over like it was tuned already. When I did the new 4 barrel carb and intake it took about 10 seconds to fire and timing was off by 20 degrees or so. If it has to be key on and start and up to 2500 rpm in a few seconds, no way can I do that.


You can do it IF:

You are using a known ignition and you fill the carb bowls before starting. The key is to set the timing at 40 degrees BTDC on #1 cylinder. You do that by setting the crank at 40 degrees BTDC, dropping in the distributor, and lining up the rotor with number 1 on the cap. If you don't run a locked out distributor, you need to turn the rotor so you are opening up the advance and then line up the rotor with number 1 on the cap. If your timing curve doesn't come in before 2500 you need to use a bit more than 40 so you have enough timing on it so it starts and runs cool. Slow timing builds heat. A lot of guys try and set the timing at TDC and wonder why it gets hot and won't start.

The cam you posted is easy to make run.

If the engine turns over a few times and doesn't start...STOP and go back and verify fuel, spark, timing and compression. If it has those, it MUST run.
 
Distributor is known. It was a less than 1 second start engine before when I took it apart 2 weeks ago. A little more when cold.

I guess your statement about dropping in the distributor is a good one. I definitely know how to do that. 40* btdc is pretty advanced. So if that is the key I can do that.
 
Before you put the intake on but have the valvetrain ready to go, mark every lifter at the same point. Rotate the motor two revolutions. Every lifter must rotate, and about the same. If you have any that don't rotate, pull the lifter,put 500 grit sandpaper in your palm, rotate the base of the lifter just till it is dull looking. Retest. A lifter that doesn't rotate immediately will fail immediately.
 
Distributor is known. It was a less than 1 second start engine before when I took it apart 2 weeks ago. A little more when cold.

I guess your statement about dropping in the distributor is a good one. I definitely know how to do that. 40* btdc is pretty advanced. So if that is the key I can do that.

I know 40+ sounds like a lot, but with no load and therefore low cylinder pressures it isn't.
My motor runs up into the low 50's under light throttle and low load conditions.
 
If you use a good brake in lube you should be good. Where abouts in Elbert county are you? I'm on the Arapaho, Elbert line, Kiowa Bennett road.
 
Well, a 318, at 9.2, won't be that bad with that cam.The VP will be a little better than a low-C later 318.The math says about 7% better

But, for a 4speed manual; I'd get it on a 106LSA to punch up the pressure and the VP, and with headers, the overlap, at 47* will actually count for something, and best of all? you can get some fuel mileage out of it.
Yeah that's what I would do; an LSA of 106 and in at 105.
Here's food for thought
the Wallace says;.............................Scr./Dcr./psi./.VP
The original cam,a 240/112 looks like 9.2/8.15/164/136VP..in at 108
The new 256/112, in at 108 looks like 9.2/7.78/154/122VP
The...... 256/106,in at 105,looks like 9.2/7.93/158/128VP
But no matter how you slice it, 122 is soft.
with an Scr-bump ,the 256/112 looks like 9.7/8.19/165/130VP jus saying
howzabout a 268/104,in at102,looks like 9.7/8.19/165/130VP now yer talking. I would sacrifice 6 points of VP for the power of this cam.And to go from 9.2 to 9.7 is like 4.57cc...... so look; you're gonna loose compression anyway with the .039 gaskets over the factory steels,so you might as well shave the heads enough to compensate for both,(about .042) and stuff the 268* in there, then you only have to do it once;Cuz I'll tell you the 268/104 is gonna be a charger.... at 9.7Scr,lol.
Just remember, all that power is gonna be 800 to 1000 rpm higher than with stock cam, or 8 mph further up in first gear with 3.55s..... but at least your bottom end won't suck so bad.....122VP is pretty soft. Well I guess that depends on your idea of soft; a stock 8/1 360 2bbl makes about that.
Anyway
I'm just thinking what I wouldn't do. And 122VP is for sure on the list,especially when for a couple of bucks more, I could have 130VP and something like 25/30 or more hp,over the 256 the only downside being the lumpy idle, and a bit of lost fuel mileage over the stocker. But a possible gain at steady-state over the 256/112.
The 268/104 wants headers to make those 64* of overlap to work.The 256/112 with just 35* won't hardly care
Happy HotRodding
 
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