Total Seal File-fit moly rings

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CUUDAK

CUUDAK

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Total Seals recommendations for gap is Bore x .0055 for top ring and Bore x .0035 for the bottom

4.402 x .0055= .024 Top
x .0035= .015 Bottom

Uh, this don't look right to me!!

I also think that the hone job in my block is too smooth to seat the rings!

I have read more crap than good info on this issue.

PRINE!!! Chime in here!!

I did read that with more Boost pressure needs more gap??

Anyone??
 
You defiantly want a smooth bore finish with the new ring face coatings. Phone Total Seal and ask them about it. You never know what there ring design does unless you ask em. (1-623-587-7400). We even use a brush sleeve to cover the stones on the CK-10 to smooth out any imperfections.
 
Most piston ring manufacturers recommend a minimum end gap of .004 inches times the bore diameter for the top piston compression ring. So for a 4 inch bore, the standard end gap would be .016 inches.



For the 2nd compression ring, the standard end gap recommendation for most stock engines is typically .005 in. x the bore diameter. So for a 4 inch bore, the minimum end gap on the 2nd ring would be .020 inches.



For a modified street performance engine that generates more horsepower and heat, the end gap should be opened up a bit to compensate for increased thermal expansion. The recommendation would be a minimum top compression piston ring end gap of.0045 to .005 inches times the bore diameter. For a 4 inch bore, the ring end gap on the top ring should be increased to .018 to .020 inches.

The 2nd compression ring on a modified street performance engine, the recommendation is typically open up the end gap to .0055 inches times the bore diameter. For a 4 inch bore, the 2nd ring would be gapped to .022 inches.



For a nitrous or blown racing engine, the top ring end gap sould be opened up to as much as .006 or .007 inches times the bore diameter. Now we're looking at a 2nd ring end gap of .024 to .028 inches in an engine with 4 inch bores.

The 2nd ring on a nitrous or blown motor, the recommended ring end gap is even wider: .0063 to .0073 inchestimes the bore ( or 0.025 to 0.029 inches with a 4 inch bore).



The recommended ring end gap for oil rings regardless of the engine application is typically .015 inches.



Some racers believe that opening up the 2nd end gap even more (say an additional 10%) can improve overall ring sealing by allowing trapped gases to escape before they blow past the top ring and cause ring flutter at high rpm (say above 5000 to 6000 rpm).
 
CUUDAK said:
Total Seals recommendations for gap is Bore x .0055 for top ring and Bore x .0035 for the bottom
Click to expand...


Im doing a 8-71 360 build and Im using forged Diamond pistons with Total Seal rings. I got the same EXACT specs as listed above from Diamond pistons and Total Seal rings.


Hemidup, I always thought the upper ring needed the most clearance as its the closest to heat and is subject to the most thermal expansion?

Thanks
 
MiradaMegaCab said:
Im doing a 8-71 360 build and Im using forged Diamond pistons with Total Seal rings. I got the same EXACT specs as listed above from Diamond pistons and Total Seal rings.


Hemidup, I always thought the upper ring needed the most clearance as its the closest to heat and is subject to the most thermal expansion?

Thanks
Click to expand...

Are you guy's using the Total Seal top gapless ring? If so, the top ring gaps are tighter. I can see a .015" ring gap for the bottom oil rings, but a .015" ring gap on the 2nd ring with a 4.402" bore put's up a RED ballon. I'd call Keith @ Total Seal and get some straight answer's.
 
hemidup said:
Are you guy's using the Total Seal top gapless ring? If so, the top ring gaps are tighter. I can see a .015" ring gap for the bottom oil rings, but a .015" ring gap on the 2nd ring with a 4.402" bore put's up a RED ballon. I'd call Keith @ Total Seal and get some straight answer's.
Click to expand...

File-fit Moly
 
MiradaMegaCab said:
X2 file fit. Total Seal is the manufacture.


Wiseco web site said the same thing as Hemidup, a wider 2nd ring gap than the 1st ring gap to prevent flutter.
Click to expand...

I have also read that if the 2nd ring gap is too tight it will butt under heat expansion and cause the top ring to allow compression behind it and seize to the cylinder wall.

.015 just doesn't seem to be enough gap to me.

Louis,
What did your machinist do with yours??
 
go .026 on the second, it'll help control ring flutter. 0.015 would be a little tight on a second ring for my liking. if you don't like the bigger second idea put it at .022 and forget about it


0.015 is the min on oil support rails

i don't know what pistons you have, but i see somebody already touched on the fact to use the piton manufacture's chart. thats the best way usually. im not a real big fan of total seals, they work good on the dyno. i had gapless tops in my hemi, last time i tore it down i just went with a good plasma moly. seems a little happier.

i gotta agree also .024 is a little big on the top for a N/A street motor. the .020/.022 sounds a little more inline. id have to go out to the garage and look at my sheets
 
68 HEMI GTS said:
go .026 on the second, it'll help control ring flutter. 0.015 would be a little tight on a second ring for my liking. if you don't like the bigger second idea put it at .022 and forget about it


0.015 is the min on oil support rails

i don't know what pistons you have, but i see somebody already touched on the fact to use the piton manufacture's chart. thats the best way usually. im not a real big fan of total seals, they work good on the dyno. i had gapless tops in my hemi, last time i tore it down i just went with a good plasma moly. seems a little happier.

i gotta agree also .024 is a little big on the top for a N/A street motor. the .020/.022 sounds a little more inline. id have to go out to the garage and look at my sheets
Click to expand...

Yeah,
I have the Diamond Forged Aluminum pistons and they came with the Total Seal rings.

This is for a 80mm Turbocharged application on my 400 B-engine that will see no more than 14-15 lbs of boost at the track and 8-10 lbs on the street.

The "Custom piston" card that came with the pistons shows,
Bore x .0055 for top
Bore x .0035 for the 2nd
.0015 for oil

Machinist put a really smoooooth hone on the cylinders and used torque plates through this process.

I will have to call Kieth at Total Seal Monday and confirm this.
 
68 HEMI GTS said:
go .026 on the second, it'll help control ring flutter. 0.015 would be a little tight on a second ring for my liking. if you don't like the bigger second idea put it at .022 and forget about it


0.015 is the min on oil support rails

i don't know what pistons you have, but i see somebody already touched on the fact to use the piton manufacture's chart. thats the best way usually. im not a real big fan of total seals, they work good on the dyno. i had gapless tops in my hemi, last time i tore it down i just went with a good plasma moly. seems a little happier.

i gotta agree also .024 is a little big on the top for a N/A street motor. the .020/.022 sounds a little more inline. id have to go out to the garage and look at my sheets
Click to expand...

Agreed on the gapless top rings. My last Hemi also had them and talk about using oil. I think the top gapless is too effcient so the 2nd ring can't do its job properly. Once I introduced vaccum in the crankcase my oil usage issues went away. I'm not going gapless this time around either.
 
I spoke with Kieth from Total Seal today. He said the supplied spec sheet is outdated and NOT to use .0035 for the second ring.

Im running 10psi of boost from an 8-71 blower and a 150 shot of N2O and Kieth suggested I use .0055 for 1st and 2nd rings.

He doesnt reccomend a larger 2nd ring gap than the 1st ring.
 
MiradaMegaCab said:
I spoke with Kieth from Total Seal today. He said the supplied spec sheet is outdated and NOT to use .0035 for the second ring.

Im running 10psi of boost from an 8-71 blower and a 150 shot of N2O and Kieth suggested I use .0055 for 1st and 2nd rings.

He doesnt reccomend a larger 2nd ring gap than the 1st ring.
Click to expand...

Good to know!
I got sidetracked and didn't call him yet for my application. Now ALL the ROOTS guys have an idea.
 
Pretty sure he used a Wiseco GFX Ring Stack.

Explanation on the subject.... From Wiseco Website............

Ring packages almost always consist of 3 rings these days. If ring life is not a concern, the .043-.043-3mm is common. For people looking for better performance with longer life, run the Wiseco GFX Ring package. The GFX rings have a stainless steel Gas nitrided top ring with a Napier hook second ring and nitrided oil ring rails. The GFX rings are a .047-.047-3mm size. The most common long life ring package for 4-inch and over bore is a 1/16, 1/16, 3/16. Dikes rings are currently only popular in blown alcohol or Top Fuel applications. Gas ports should be added when using the extra-thin ring packages. Important note: It is the customer's responsibility, when using a .043 ring-pack, to specify when a back-cut (Pro) ring is used versus a standard (D-wall) ring.


The second ring gap being larger then the top gap was an upgrade and improvement to a select number of our 4-Stroke ring packages. As the piston moves down on the power stroke, combustion pressure accumulates in the land area of the piston between the top ring and the second ring. This accumulation of pressure can cause the top ring to unseat from its sealing area at the bottom of the ring groove. This is addressed by increasing the gap area of the second ring. This affords a controlled release of the inter-land pressure, and keeps the top ring seated on its lower sealing surface for improved performance. Please remember this gap difference is not present on all of our ring packages, but just a select number of 4-Stroke applications.
 
I guess this proves that every manufacturer has a different setup. I use Wiseco pistons and rings on all of my 2-3 and 4 wheel toys. They do tend to wear the cylinders faster tho!
 
CUUDAK said:
I guess this proves that every manufacturer has a different setup. I use Wiseco pistons and rings on all of my 2-3 and 4 wheel toys. They do tend to wear the cylinders faster tho!
Click to expand...

Are you talking about the old stuff from the 1970's.

The GFX Rings are fairly new. Alot of guys have great success with them.

I was going to use Total Seal and Brian chose to use these, he's got to have his reasons why I suppose.

Well,,,,,,, Back to work!
 
Mad Dart said:
Are you talking about the old stuff from the 1970's.

The GFX Rings are fairly new. Alot of guys have great success with them.

I was going to use Total Seal and Brian chose to use these, he's got to have his reasons why I suppose.

Well,,,,,,, Back to work!
Click to expand...

Whatever they sell at the Honda shop. Could be old stock??

Most machinist have a preference that tends to be different between them.
 
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