Vehicle Ownerships for sale??

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Done Swimmin

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Hi All
I remember a booth at Moparfest where a vendor was selling ownerships for vehicles. He had a binder full of old ones and I can't figure what the heck is the angle. Why would anyone car about an old title for a car long crushed??

Anyone understand the product he is selling?

pete
 
If you have a 68 Dart that is a 270 model and he has all the paperwork for a 68 GTS, you get the paperwork from him and put all the proper numbers on your car you can then sell it as a 68 GTS for MUCH more money. It is illegal to do , but happens all the time. Someone should get a hold of the binder he has and burn it!!
 
I can see re-body on a car that you are restoring and the body is shot. But to put numbers on your car from a car you never owned is wrong. If you don't own the complete car you are restoring don't use the numbers.
 
Last year at the Bothwell show there too was a fellow selling old ownerships. I bet they are collected from the licence bureaus and auto wreckers over the years. Or they could all be fake ones ... Question is why buy them.. probably for the same reason I did. lol

I buy anything related to a (my) 68 Dart. I even bought old 1968 Ontario Plates.

Purpose is display for me.. kinda gives off the nostalgic feeling of our old classics.
 
The street rodders buy them because the new emissions laws call for the current year engine and all emissions hardware to be installed in a "new" street rod. I know a guy who bought a 32 Ford coupe title and ID plate for $5000.
 
How is this even legal? You can't sell stuff that is clearly going to be used for illegal purposes. What other legal use could it have? I mean if you buy a car here you get the title with it or how else do you prove ownership when you register the plates?

This year I am going to ask him if he is there.

pete
 
How many Hemi cars out there that are really the Hemi cars. My buddy was buying them for the motors in the 70's. I can remember waiting in lines with a 5 gal. cap card back then. no one wanted the BB cars. .
 
I've met the guy your talking about. He only sells up to the 50's. A friend of mine bought one for his 40 chev because it was the easiest hassle free way. Was not trying to fool anyone.
 
I've met the guy your talking about. He only sells up to the 50's. A friend of mine bought one for his 40 chev because it was the easiest hassle free way. Was not trying to fool anyone.

easiest hassle free way to what ? fool the DMV ?
 
I guess, from what I here lots of cars of that era the ownerships don't match. I sold a 64 ford van in my youth and was told by the buyer that the the ownership didn't match and all he had to do was sign a form in case there was a problem( ie stolen) they new where it was.
 
How is this even legal? You can't sell stuff that is clearly going to be used for illegal purposes. What other legal use could it have? I mean if you buy a car here you get the title with it or how else do you prove ownership when you register the plates?

This year I am going to ask him if he is there.

pete

It's not illegal to sell the old documents. Sellers of that sort of thing usually specify that they're for collection/nostalgia purposes only. And that's not illegal.

It is of course illegal to use them to register a car, but it definitely happens. Especially on the old cars. Cars from the 30's and 40's especially only have 2 or 3 identifying numbers, and some of the earlier ones were even stamped by hand. They weren't VIN numbers either, most were just serial #'s. A lot of the serial # tags were attached with screws too, so those can be lost (or switched!) with ease. It doesn't take much to replicate either of those.

But when the smog laws dictate that you register your 1930's hot rod as a "new construction" because of too many new parts, I can see the frustration. In California, only so many "special construction" cars can be smog exempt each year (500 I think), and builders usually camp out at the DMV the night before the numbers reset. Special construction rules vary greatly from state to state, and some of them are pretty ridiculous. California, believe it or not, isn't the worst of them. You can usually get a title with an inspection here, even if not all your numbers match, as long as you can demonstrate that everything was actually from the time period- ie, different body/frame #'s on your model A, but all original steel. I have a '56 Austin Healey with a state assigned VIN because the "VIN" tags (which are serial # tags on that car) were removed for painting. No rivets mind you, they're attached by regular old sheet metal screws. But of course those inspections depend a lot on the inspector, and not many folks want to roll the dice with a vehicle they sank tens of thousands into.

Later cars, like ours, have VIN's with multiple stampings, "hidden" #'s, etc, and are harder to re-body. To me, its also a different level of deception to do it. Early cars were never assigned VIN's like that, and registration was a whole different ball game. Those numbers were not intended to be used like they are today, and counterfeiting wasn't a problem (or no one cared) back then. I mean, not all PEOPLE had birth certificates in that era, cars were a minor detail.

But the later cars had an established system to track them (VIN's), and were stamped specifically so that they were hard to copy/duplicate for purposes of identification. But you still better believe that a bunch of those big dollar hemi cars etc are re-bodies. They HAVE to be, given what some of them looked like before restoration. But even that's semantics. If you replace the entire car around the VIN's with reproduction metal, is it a re-body? In many cases, its not (or not illegal at any rate). Now that you can buy pretty much the entire car, that's not as hard to do anymore. But it is a re-body if you cut the VIN's out and put them on another car. Either way, the car that left the factory is pretty much gone, the difference is only whether another factory car died to make it happen.
 
It's not illegal to sell the old documents. Sellers of that sort of thing usually specify that they're for collection/nostalgia purposes only. And that's not illegal.

It is of course illegal to use them to register a car, but it definitely happens. Especially on the old cars. Cars from the 30's and 40's especially only have 2 or 3 identifying numbers, and some of the earlier ones were even stamped by hand. They weren't VIN numbers either, most were just serial #'s. A lot of the serial # tags were attached with screws too, so those can be lost (or switched!) with ease. It doesn't take much to replicate either of those.

But when the smog laws dictate that you register your 1930's hot rod as a "new construction" because of too many new parts, I can see the frustration. In California, only so many "special construction" cars can be smog exempt each year (500 I think), and builders usually camp out at the DMV the night before the numbers reset. Special construction rules vary greatly from state to state, and some of them are pretty ridiculous. California, believe it or not, isn't the worst of them. You can usually get a title with an inspection here, even if not all your numbers match, as long as you can demonstrate that everything was actually from the time period- ie, different body/frame #'s on your model A, but all original steel. I have a '56 Austin Healey with a state assigned VIN because the "VIN" tags (which are serial # tags on that car) were removed for painting. No rivets mind you, they're attached by regular old sheet metal screws. But of course those inspections depend a lot on the inspector, and not many folks want to roll the dice with a vehicle they sank tens of thousands into.

Later cars, like ours, have VIN's with multiple stampings, "hidden" #'s, etc, and are harder to re-body. To me, its also a different level of deception to do it. Early cars were never assigned VIN's like that, and registration was a whole different ball game. Those numbers were not intended to be used like they are today, and counterfeiting wasn't a problem (or no one cared) back then. I mean, not all PEOPLE had birth certificates in that era, cars were a minor detail.

But the later cars had an established system to track them (VIN's), and were stamped specifically so that they were hard to copy/duplicate for purposes of identification. But you still better believe that a bunch of those big dollar hemi cars etc are re-bodies. They HAVE to be, given what some of them looked like before restoration. But even that's semantics. If you replace the entire car around the VIN's with reproduction metal, is it a re-body? In many cases, its not (or not illegal at any rate). Now that you can buy pretty much the entire car, that's not as hard to do anymore. But it is a re-body if you cut the VIN's out and put them on another car. Either way, the car that left the factory is pretty much gone, the difference is only whether another factory car died to make it happen.

BINGO - any car can have a proper title issued for it provided it passes a full DMV vetted safety inspection , the only thing you save by buying a non matching title is the DMV inspection and if your work is to shoddy to pass then your POS shouldn't be on the road and you shouldn't be able to sell your POS to someone else in a way that allows them to put it on the road without being inspected , I think it's pretty safe to assume he only sells titles for cars into the fifties because that's where the market for this sort of scam is greatest since the industry started to get serious about documenting their products with numbers , build tags and codes in the sixties .
 
BINGO - any car can have a proper title issued for it provided it passes a full DMV vetted safety inspection , the only thing you save by buying a non matching title is the DMV inspection and if your work is to shoddy to pass then your POS shouldn't be on the road and you shouldn't be able to sell your POS to someone else in a way that allows them to put it on the road without being inspected , I think it's pretty safe to assume he only sells titles for cars into the fifties because that's where the market for this sort of scam is greatest since the industry started to get serious about documenting their products with numbers , build tags and codes in the sixties .

Well, not exactly. It really depends on WHERE you are. The safety inspection isn't the issue most folks are trying to avoid, its the year on the title they issue you. Even if you do impeccable work, you can be issued a "special construction" title with the current year. So, your original 1931 Model A body, with a new frame (for safety!), just became a 2013 special construction, and in some places is subject to the CURRENT SMOG LAWS. The same car, with a "title", hits the road as a '31 Ford and is subject to nothing.

With reproduction bodies and frames this is an issue too. You can buy a 1932 Ford Roadster from Brookville, and put a brand new frame under it. Viola, new car that looks like a 1932 Ford- not one single thing is original 1932 Ford. It also gets titled as a new car, that 2013 special construction again. So, some folks will obtain an old 1932 title, so that their brand new car hits the street as a 1932, and is exempt from all sorts of headaches. As more and more entire car bodies are available it becomes a bigger problem.
 
many places especially here in Canada will issue the "Constructors" title as being a 32 Ford constructed in 2013 , you can also claim a lost title and avoid the constructors title deal but most provinces will still require a full safety inspection on any vehicle not currently or previously registered in that province , Onterrible requires a safety certification on all vehicles changing hands but BC only inspects vehicles coming from out of province so if the vehicle is in their computer as having been registered here in the past they will re-register it to you without any inspection - yes we get a lot of curb siding and title jumping here , get a BC title for a crushed car and swap on a body with a fake VIN and voila 70 Hemi Cuda ragtop . The early Cramaeros where favorites for this since the VIN was attached to the removeable dash all they needed was a dash and title from a wrecked car to convert a stolen car to a clean one , back in the day when insurance wasn't mandatorey these cars where often in the hands of guys who couldn't afford the premiums after a couple of speeding tickets so there would be no record of the car being sold as salvage .
 
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