What if question on high end coatings -understanding the end result

[greymouser7]

On the high end builds some of the guys use pistons with ceramic coatings on the piston tops (correct terminology?)

David Vizard thinks the coatings would be very beneficial on aluminum heads in one of his many how to-horse-power-engine books. -I can't remember him illustrating any results in this particular category.

I bet that coating the exhaust runners would help some, but once all of the metal gets to operating temperature, wouldn't it negate any insulating benefits? -Except for cooloff periods in drag racing maybe?

So they coat the tops of the piston, but I have never heard-of or scene anybody coat the combustion chamber. If the goal is to utilize/maximize the combustion energy as much as possible (instead of bleeding/leaking off heat), then I can't imagine coating one with out the other if you were to go to that length.

On the other hand, if the insulation actually, effectively, separated/INSULATED the combustion heat from an aluminum cylinder head, then wouldn't that negate the plus one compression point that people say are the benefits of setting up an engine with aluminum heads.

thanks in advance

all experience, literature, etc. greatly appreciated.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Damn.

 

[805moparkid]

we use a thermal barrier coating on all of our hemi motors... have the piston tops, valve faces, combustion chambers, and exh runner done as well...

drops engine temps be 20* and helps with detonation issues...

i can ask the boss what place we use here in AZ if you like...

 

[RustyRatRod]

You can get hung up on stuff like this John and never get anything built. Nobody I know uses the stuff. That's not to say it doesn't work, but I know some guys running some seven second 1/4 mile times and they see no use for it. You can say "yeah but....." and try to justify all day long, bud, but my honest opinion is it will be a waste of YOUR money. Look at Ed's answer. He builds SS/A hemi clones for a living. Ed, what do those things cost turnkey? 100k? Sure John, if you want to load your **** up with every kinda bell and whistle imaginable, I guess you can do it. "MY" advice to YOU is simply this. ....and I mean no offense by it, so don't take it as such. Get your fuckin nose out of all those damned books and BUILD something. You're already going to make enough rookie mistakes on your first build to even worry about some high tech horse **** like thermal barrier coatings. Stop trying to get so damned technical with it. You don't need all that crap. If you just gotta have it, knock yourself out. It ain't cheap. Just for kicks, I priced it for my Hemi pistons, because Rodney knows somebody locally in Milledgeville who does it. Guess what? 75 bucks a pistons times eight.....and that's the "cause I know you good guy discount". I've already told you Rodney has extended the offer to come in on any of your projects. I would take advantage of that. Anybody running 7s on a stock stroke 440, I would listen to. I told you, he has like eight race cars and none of them are slow and none of them have thermal barrier bullshit. He knows what he's doin. Now that I've said all that, I'll say this......I'm not saying thermal coatings don't work.....so I don't want that arguement. I'm just saying for what YOU wanna do it will be a total waste of money when you could have spent it better somewhere else. Stay safe my brother and please remember that we all appreciate ALL that you do in your active military role. We love you man.

 

[RustyRatRod]

....and I wanna back up what I said by sayin I know your situation. I know books are all you have for months on end. So, just try to separate what might be hype for your project.

 

[CudaChick1968]

$75 a piston??? You guys know you can put that stuff on yourself with a cheap eBay airbrush setup and cure it in a yard sale toaster oven, right?

Here's a little basic info from my powder supplier.

Thermal Barrier Coatings

Cerakote Thermal Barrier products significantly reduce heat transfer of components that operate at elevated temperatures. These coatings are used extensively in the automotive, commercial truck, heavy equipment and performance racing industries. Thermal barrier products increase performance, reduce maintenance cost and protect against corrosion .
Cerakote Thermal Barrier products can alter heat transfer by up to 15% depending on the specific application.




RECOMMENDED USES:
Piston Domes
Combustion Chambers
Valve Faces
Exhaust Systems and Components


Dry Film Lubricants

Dry film lubricants coatings are designed to create a permanent lubricated surface to impede galling and the seizing of components. Like or dissimilar materials can benefit from the application of these materials. The suggested application processes allow the coating to become an intrinsic part of the component rather than a coating on the surface.

RECOMMENDED USES:
Piston Skirts
Cylinder Walls
Crankshafts & Camshafts
Bearings and Gears
Valve Stems & Rocket Pivots

ABOUT MICRO SLICK

Micro Slick's formulation prevents surface-to-surface contact, thus reducing friction and wear between mating surfaces. The exceptional low resistant to shear enables the Micro Slick coated surface to operate with extremely low friction. Micro Slick is available in both air cure and oven cure systems.

RECOMMENDED USES:
Piston Skirts
Cylinder Walls
Crankshafts & Camshafts
Bearings and Gears
Valve Stems & Rocket Pivots


Heat Dissipation Coatings

When applied to surfaces, Micro Dyne's heat dissipation coatings transfer heat away from a substrate, resulting in improved efficiencies, performance and longevity of the coated parts. This ceramic bonded, thermal-conductive coating also helps to prevent corrosion and damage related to chemical and solvent attack. The Micro Dyne Artic Black and Transfer Black coating systems are used extensively in the transportation and electronics industries to reduce residual heat from components.

RECOMMENDED USES:
Radiators
Brake Drums
Oil Coolers
Differentials
Transmission Cases
Lighting Equipment
Heat Exchangers
Transmission Coolers
Air Conditioning Condensers


ABOUT TRANSFER BLACK: C-187

Tranfer Black is formulated to provide an increased thermal transfer from a surface to a free flowing air environment. When applied to metal substrates, this coating is proven to increase thermal transfer of up to 35-40% versus uncoated metal substrates. This increased thermal transfer results in components operating at lower temperatures, thus creating gains in efficiency, and extending part life.

RECOMMENDED USES:
Radiators
Brake Drums
Oil Coolers
Differentials
Transmission Cases
Lighting Equipment
Heat Exchangers
Transmission Coolers
Air Conditioning Condensers

ABOUT ARTIC BLACK: P-202

Artic Black is a heat dissipation solid film lubricant. It is a resin bonded thermal conductive coating applied to metal surfaces; designed to protect, lubricate, and radiate heat. Arctic Black is formulated to protect metal form corrosion, provide maximum chemical and solvent resistance, and act as a high temperature solid film lubricant. Artic Black has shown to increase heat transfer by 10 - 15% when compared to uncoated metal substrates.

RECOMMENDED USES:
Radiators
Brake Drums
Oil Coolers
Differentials
Transmission Cases
Lighting Equipment
Heat Exchangers
Transmission Coolers
Air Conditioning Condensers

For additional info on any of this, feel free to contact me or one of the product engineers at NIC Industries.

 

[MtNemoMopar]

Thats some great info Leanna:cheers:

I use dry lubes at work, mostly for protection during break-in, and for corrosion protection.

 

[805moparkid]

$75 a piston??? You guys know you can put that stuff on yourself with a cheap eBay airbrush setup and cure it in a yard sale toaster oven, right?

Here's a little basic info from my powder supplier.

Thermal Barrier Coatings

Cerakote Thermal Barrier products significantly reduce heat transfer of components that operate at elevated temperatures. These coatings are used extensively in the automotive, commercial truck, heavy equipment and performance racing industries. Thermal barrier products increase performance, reduce maintenance cost and protect against corrosion .
Cerakote Thermal Barrier products can alter heat transfer by up to 15% depending on the specific application.




RECOMMENDED USES:
Piston Domes
Combustion Chambers
Valve Faces
Exhaust Systems and Components


Dry Film Lubricants

Dry film lubricants coatings are designed to create a permanent lubricated surface to impede galling and the seizing of components. Like or dissimilar materials can benefit from the application of these materials. The suggested application processes allow the coating to become an intrinsic part of the component rather than a coating on the surface.

RECOMMENDED USES:
Piston Skirts
Cylinder Walls
Crankshafts & Camshafts
Bearings and Gears
Valve Stems & Rocket Pivots

ABOUT MICRO SLICK

Micro Slick's formulation prevents surface-to-surface contact, thus reducing friction and wear between mating surfaces. The exceptional low resistant to shear enables the Micro Slick coated surface to operate with extremely low friction. Micro Slick is available in both air cure and oven cure systems.

RECOMMENDED USES:
Piston Skirts
Cylinder Walls
Crankshafts & Camshafts
Bearings and Gears
Valve Stems & Rocket Pivots


Heat Dissipation Coatings

When applied to surfaces, Micro Dyne's heat dissipation coatings transfer heat away from a substrate, resulting in improved efficiencies, performance and longevity of the coated parts. This ceramic bonded, thermal-conductive coating also helps to prevent corrosion and damage related to chemical and solvent attack. The Micro Dyne Artic Black and Transfer Black coating systems are used extensively in the transportation and electronics industries to reduce residual heat from components.

RECOMMENDED USES:
Radiators
Brake Drums
Oil Coolers
Differentials
Transmission Cases
Lighting Equipment
Heat Exchangers
Transmission Coolers
Air Conditioning Condensers


ABOUT TRANSFER BLACK: C-187

Tranfer Black is formulated to provide an increased thermal transfer from a surface to a free flowing air environment. When applied to metal substrates, this coating is proven to increase thermal transfer of up to 35-40% versus uncoated metal substrates. This increased thermal transfer results in components operating at lower temperatures, thus creating gains in efficiency, and extending part life.

RECOMMENDED USES:
Radiators
Brake Drums
Oil Coolers
Differentials
Transmission Cases
Lighting Equipment
Heat Exchangers
Transmission Coolers
Air Conditioning Condensers

ABOUT ARTIC BLACK: P-202

Artic Black is a heat dissipation solid film lubricant. It is a resin bonded thermal conductive coating applied to metal surfaces; designed to protect, lubricate, and radiate heat. Arctic Black is formulated to protect metal form corrosion, provide maximum chemical and solvent resistance, and act as a high temperature solid film lubricant. Artic Black has shown to increase heat transfer by 10 - 15% when compared to uncoated metal substrates.

RECOMMENDED USES:
Radiators
Brake Drums
Oil Coolers
Differentials
Transmission Cases
Lighting Equipment
Heat Exchangers
Transmission Coolers
Air Conditioning Condensers

For additional info on any of this, feel free to contact me or one of the product engineers at NIC Industries.

you get into the header coating business yet?

 

[CudaChick1968]

How'd I miss this? Sorry Ed.

I've been in ... and out. I can do high temp ceramic coatings for headers and manifolds but pretty much got out of advertising it due to the shipping costs back and forth. The materials are also extremely costly. I bought two quarts for personal use, one black and one silver, and it was almost $300 just for the ceramic.